FPE from flowers = phosphorus source?

bonsai · Aug 16, 2010

Thinking out loud here, done plenty of searching but haven't found any Science to go support or refute.

I have a heap of Big camelias on my property, all of which are heavily in flower. I'm planning to make fermented plant extract from a pile rather than composting it all, just trying to find out a very rough n/p/k for an all-flower fermented extract.

My simplistic mind wants to think "flowering = needs P, therefore flowers = P" but I have strong doubts it's so simple.

Little help?

jaykush · Aug 16, 2010

as i always say whats better for flowering than fermented flowers! i recently found out marigolds are high in P and have been using the blooms for a few weeks now. always used yarrow blooms though and they are awesome. cant say what NPK camelia flowers have though. sometimes finding the nutrient data for random plants is practically impossible. if only i had a gas chromatograph machine *dreams*

but just to let you know, your not crazy and your on the right track. its all about the fine tuning from here.

that being said, composted flowers make a great top dressing imo. that is if you have A LOT of flowers, like i do in spring and summer. then by late summer early fall when i need it there all composted and ready to go.

bonsai · Aug 16, 2010

Great, thanks for encouraging further experimentation. I do indeed have a LOT of flowers, the flowers have always been left to compost under the trees and those trees are incredibly healthy with zero input from me. Rain + self-mulching/compost.

I'll make up a couple bottles and try it out on some sick azaleas that are struggling to bud.

pseudopod · Aug 16, 2010

I just made up a big jug of FPE with the flowering tops of a few big basil plants I have in the garden. I'm hoping to have a nice P fert as well! We'll see how it goes.

jaykush · Aug 16, 2010

i bet you will get pest control properties as well as fert from the basil FPE. i had a friend with spider mites on his plants, we made a lavender FPE. few days later, all gone

Cannasseur · Aug 16, 2010

Pretty cool stuff! Can you use just about any flower for an FPE?

jaykush · Aug 16, 2010

its best to do some research on the plants you are going to use, some have allelopathic effects on plants and can do more damage than good. some are simply poisonous for us and i don't feel safe using those. for the most part stick to well known FPE plants unless you plan on doing side tests first to determine the properties and effects of the plants extract.

also in the case of bonsai, he could take those flowers, dry them and have FPE material for quite some time.

Cannasseur · Aug 16, 2010

Thanks, I have to say I really admire your bare bones techniques jay seems like you don't pay a cent as far as fertilizing goes.

Ever try using any of those allelopathic plants as a herbicide? My prof. was talking about black walnuts releasing juglone last semester and it got me thinkin'.

pseudopod · Aug 16, 2010

That's really interesting, jaykush. I've got about 5 gallons of the stuff, I'll do some experimenting and let everyone know what I find out.

I just started my first batch of lactobacilli (thanks jaykush, again) and I plan on adding some to the FPE as soon as it's ready. I share your frustration on finding NPK values for stuff too, maybe we can make friends with a lab tech somewhere, eh?

I'm a little confused as to why bonsai would need to dry the flowers before he made an FPE out of them. Couldn't he just dump them in fresh?

jaykush · Aug 16, 2010

Cannasseur yea i grew a few lbs last season for about 10$, and i think that 10$ was for the pots that i started the plants in. as far as ferts or soil 0$

Ever try using any of those allelopathic plants as a herbicide? My prof. was talking about black walnuts releasing juglone last semester and it got me thinkin'.

well not all plants are effected by juglone, we have currants and gooseberries growing under our black walnut tree. as well as a few vegetables. you can actually use nettle as an herbicide. just make the strongest nettle tea you can make, and dont dilute it. water the weeds with it. basically it will "nutrient burn" them to death. leaving fertile soil after for planting.

maybe we can make friends with a lab tech somewhere, eh?

i wish lol, theres so many plants and natural materials in my area that id like to know the properties of. for now its test and trial, trial and error.

I'm a little confused as to why bonsai would need to dry the flowers before he made an FPE out of them. Couldn't he just dump them in fresh?

well i said he could. from what i know about camelias they only flower once a year, and in bulk. so really he only has a small window to make the fresh flower FPE with them, now if he took the time to dry some and store it. he could have ferts for a whole season until they flower again( that is if there really worth it). same goes with nettles and most all other plants. proper harvesting and smart planning will keep you supplied for free year after year after year with high quality organic fertilizers that will stimulate and build your soil over time. for example, nettles here are seasonal, the best crops are spring and early summer, after that they go to seed and i leave them so i can have a crop next year( or collect seed to grow my own patch which i have 5 ) so if i harvest the plant properly and cut only the tops in spring and summer, i can dry and store enough for all winter and early spring until they are ready again.

jaykush · Aug 16, 2010

im a bit stoned, whats FPM? do you mean FPE? what kind of effects? like the high and potency, taste? disease and pest resistance? there are quite a few extracts one can make that all have different uses and effects on the plant.

also FPE to me is a misleading term sort of, i use FPE when you make extracts with molasses, the sugars ferment and really they are basically to culture the biology in the plant matter(yes there are bacteria and fungi on and in the leaves of plants), not extract nutrients( usually only done 24-48 hours). plant extracts are much more fitting imo for regular liquid soaks we are talking about.

bonsai · Aug 17, 2010

I have 5 containers of camellia flowers with rain water combined with a tablespoon of black strap molasses setup to ferment. It's very much winter at my place, so this will take some time. The flowers are a mix of white, red, pink and magenta; both new off the trees and recently fallen.

Good tip re: drying the flowers Jay, my wife's going to give me hell when she sees me drying flowers :biglaugh:

jaykush · Aug 17, 2010

next time skip the molasses, not needed unless your culturing the microbes in the plant matter, and when you do that its only fermenting for 24 hours. because its only 24 hours its biologically rich but not nutrient. the long soaks without sugars are the nutrient rich stuff you want as fertilizers.

bonsai · Aug 17, 2010

I'll do another couple of bottles this week with no molasses, and will finely chop the flowers first.

jaykush · Aug 17, 2010

sounds good let us know how they work out.

Rusty420 · Aug 17, 2010

Hey guys, is there a bokashi thread, or a definative FPE thread? :chin:

id like to ferment bananas, is there pictorials?...

sorry for my dumbassness... :redface:

schwagg · Aug 18, 2010

JK, i wonder if thats why i have questioned myself on using the FPE that i used a little sugar in. i've let them soak so long that i have thought about throwing them out. the last round i used straight plant material and enjoyed the rewards besides the smell of poop death!

jaykush said:
next time skip the molasses, not needed unless your culturing the microbes in the plant matter, and when you do that its only fermenting for 24 hours. because its only 24 hours its biologically rich but not nutrient. the long soaks without sugars are the nutrient rich stuff you want as fertilizers.

hash head · Sep 5, 2010

rose petals work great and they smell great also... gotta find people around you with dying roses.

bonsai · Sep 5, 2010

I've been meaning to report back to this thread...

A 1:1 mix of finely chopped camellia flowers were combined with rainwater (ph ~6.5) and left for 2 weeks. Two somewhat sickly azaleas were chosen as the test subjects -- both have been in identical soil for more years than I can remember and are of the same height and density as well as the same colour flowers. They are planted 1m from each other and receive the same amount of light and rain. From my observations in the past these two plants perform the same as each other each season. Good test subjects I hope.

One plant was fertilised (heavy soil drenching + light foliar) with a 1:20 mix of FPE:rain water twice over two weeks. Not only does it have substantially more flower buds than the control plant (easily triple the number), but they are also much more developed. Unfortunately I'm out of town for a week as of today, so I can't provide any pics until I get back. It's Bucket Science at best, but I'm happy enough with this test to decide that I'll be using fermented flowers as a fertiliser in the future.

The two bottles of FPE are still fermenting. They have the same pleasant smell they've had all along, except the liquid has darkened slightly. I don't know how long it will store, but I'll check it weekly until the odour changes.

jaykush · Sep 5, 2010

strain the material out if you want to store it. it will last longer.

FPE from flowers = phosphorus source?

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