New grow process?/What to call it?

pray4pistils · Mar 24, 2010

Guys, I'm on the verge of proving an innovative growing technique. However, I'm not sure what to call it. I'd like to demonstrate my findings but would definitely appreciate some input.

The principles that underlie my method are nothing new. However, the process and strategy are unique in their focus and intent. Although controversial, I deliberately mix synthetic fertilizers with pure organics. The goal has been to conveniently achieve the massive yields that synthetic compounds make easy. However, I also seek the usual benefits of organic growing. Those include improved flavor and aroma. An additional value is that there is no need to sterilize anything. Sterility is completely unnatural and makes as much sense to me as living in a hyperbaric chamber and then taking antibiotics to replace one's immune system.

Furthermore, stress is substantially reduced. General health is improved. Nute burning becomes a concern of the past. Multiple strains can be run simultaneously without complications. Feeding right until harvest (i.e. no flushing) becomes practical. Conventionally "wise" growers say this is impossible. "The microherd will be destroyed by the presence of synthetics!"

This is utter NONSENSE. I'm shocked that such misinformation is prevalent around here. Shortly, I'm going to prove my point with a grow show. Before I get there, though, I need to give my technique a proper name. The OMRI types hyperventilate and get red-faced whenever synthetics are mentioned. So, I'm sure that they'll object to a term like "semi-organic". "It's either purely organic or it's NOT!"

My attitude is "Yeah... whatEVER" because I look at all this scientifically vs. emotionally or politically. So, if folks are interested in learning what I'm up to, let's start with some terminology. Does "Semi-organic" or "Part organic" work? Or... is something like "Organic Amended" more accurate? Any constructive ideas will be highly appreciated.

Thanks,

:tiphat:

supermanlives · Mar 24, 2010

sometimes it hurts the herd sometimes it dont . depends . i have mixed chems and organics for years. hydro and soil

GrnMtnGrwr · Mar 24, 2010

You planning on feeding refined nutes (synthetic and chemical nutes are scary terms used by organic fanatics) while alternating and supplementing with organics? I've heard from a few growers that this gives yields of refined nutes and adds in that organic flavor. :chin:

Clackamas Coot · Mar 24, 2010

pray4pistils said:
"The microherd will be destroyed by the presence of synthetics!"

I don't use any synthetic/chemical amendments for specific reasons. Having said that it's also true that applied carefully you can maintain a viable 'transitional' grow mixing conventional and organic products.

In the commercial agriculture world, there's conventional (chemical salts), transitional (doing pretty much what you're describing) and pure organically grown.

If I were to guess then I'd probably surmise that for every organic farmer/food producer there are 15 in the 'transitional' mode.

I hope that makes some kind of sense! LOL

CC

pray4pistils · Mar 24, 2010

supermanlives said:
sometimes it hurts the herd sometimes it dont . depends . i have mixed chems and organics for years. hydro and soil

Very nice. Would you please describe what helps and hurts? I haven't found anything that kills off my little critters. That's a good thing, of course.

GrnMtnGrwr said:
You planning on feeding refined nutes (synthetic and chemical nutes are scary terms used by organic fanatics) while alternating and supplementing with organics? I've heard from a few growers that this gives yields of refined nutes and adds in that organic flavor.

Well, I don't alternate at all actually. The basic practice is to feed the plants directly with FloraNova Grow/Bloom at about a 2/3 normal concentration. I simultaneously prepare aerobic compost tea, filter it (with my ice hash bags), and pour it into my reservoir. The final 1/3 of the nutrients come from this brew but the total EC/ppm is about 20% less than with pure synthetics. This allows me to grow plants with varying nutritional needs (and sensitivities to burning, etc.) but feed them from a common reservoir. At the very end of a cycle I switch to 100% organics and don't bother flushing/starving the plants.

Clackamas Coot said:
I don't use any synthetic/chemical amendments for specific reasons. Having said that it's also true that applied carefully you can maintain a viable 'transitional' grow mixing conventional and organic products.

Thanks for stopping by, Coot. Given that you're an organic specialist I'm especially keen to hear your perspective. Do understand, though, that (aside from the "flush period") I'm running both organic teas and FloraNova at the same time the whole way through. Anyway, do you apply teas or just mix the whole foods into your soil?

Cheers,

P.S. What do y'all think I should use as a name for this hybrid practice?

Clackamas Coot · Mar 24, 2010

pray4pistils said:
Thanks for stopping by, Coot. Given that you're an organic specialist I'm especially keen to hear your perspective. Do understand, though, that (aside from the "flush period") I'm running both organic teas and FloraNova at the same time the whole way through. Anyway, do you apply teas or just mix the whole foods into your soil?

pray4pistils

Both but with a heavier emphasis on the specific soil mix that I make using a wide range of organic strata - i.e. earthworm castings, thermal compost, Alaska humus (sold under the retail name of 'Denali Gold'), bokashi bran along with minerals (Azomite, soft rock phosophate, Canadian glacial rock dust, New Jersey Green Sand, powdered oyster shells and limestone.

Along with that I mix up a seed meal concoction which includes alfalfa, soybean meal (de-fatted), flaxseed meal (aka linseed meal), canola/rape seed meal, neem seed meal, kelp meal, crab/shrimp meal, fish meal and fish bone meal. All are organic and in the case of the seed meals they're all organic non-GMO products. No bovine products ever for my concern about BSE

What this provides me is pretty much a 'water only' grow with weekly watering with seaweed extract and organic fish hydrolysate (aka fish enzyme and a few other names, i.e. NOT fish emulsion).

You folks who grow hydroponically have an interesting science that you're working. My knowledge of the Lucas formula, PH this and PH that, etc. wouldn't fill a thimble. I grow medicine - not for resale. I decided to find the easiest method that I could meaning the least amount of time I have to spend tending my 5 or 6 plants - I'm too lazy to learn what it would take to grow using your methods.

One final thought - there came a time a few months ago when I was gifted with the entire line of GH Organic Hydroponic products (I don't remember the correct name) and there were 8 bottles if I remember correctly. As I perused the labels one thing that struck me was how much carbohydrates (usually molasses but not always) most of these products contained. I'm still scratching my head on that one.

Name suggestion: Tuff 'n Transitional would be my first guess. Maybe not yours but there it is! LOL

Best wishes on your experiment/test. I'll be watching with interest.

CC

philcollins · Mar 24, 2010

I have watched a local grow go from pure chem...to pure organic...to organic/chem, similar to what u are doing...and the results of the combo method are excellent....the taste is there...aroma is there....and the yeilds. Dude swears by it now. The last batch was commented on by several folks as being, the best weed ever!

philcollins · Mar 24, 2010

OH!....and on a side note...dude has also been using recycled soil....seems that the plants are growing better and better as the soil is recycled and re amended....

RNDZL · Mar 24, 2010

nothing new

botanicare feed schedule for power series is a hybrid synth.organic schedule

works great

Clackamas Coot · Mar 24, 2010

philcollins said:
OH!....and on a side note...dude has also been using recycled soil....seems that the plants are growing better and better as the soil is recycled and re amended....

That's been my experience as well.

pray4pistils · Mar 24, 2010

Clackamas Coot said:
Along with that I mix up a seed meal concoction which includes alfalfa, soybean meal (de-fatted), flaxseed meal (aka linseed meal), canola/rape seed meal, neem seed meal, kelp meal, crab/shrimp meal, fish meal and fish bone meal.

That's a nice and balanced mix, Coot. I use alfalfa in my teas but I'm not at all familiar with the seed meal's properties. What do those substances contribute the overall success?

What this provides me is pretty much a 'water only' grow with weekly watering with seaweed extract and organic fish hydrolysate (aka fish enzyme and a few other names, i.e. NOT fish emulsion).

As I understand it fish emulsion is superior for blooming large bacteria populations. The hydrolysate is optimal for cultivating fungus. Is that your rationale?

I'm too lazy to learn what it would take to grow using your methods.

Hehehe... I'd love to change your mind on this. After all, one of my major goals here is to simplify by allowing nature to do its work.

I was gifted with the entire line of GH Organic Hydroponic products...As I perused the labels one thing that struck me was how much carbohydrates (usually molasses but not always) most of these products contained. I'm still scratching my head on that oe.

Plant roots produce sugary "exudates" which kick start the soil/food web. Actively adding it gets the party started faster and, I'd assume, leaves the plant to devote its energies towards growth, etc. Also, blackstrap molasses is like organic Cal/Mag. It's chock full of nutrients that the beneficials break down.

Best wishes on your experiment/test. I'll be watching with interest.

Thanks, buddy. Please jump in with your crazy soil knowledge when you see fit.

D.S. Toker. MD · Mar 24, 2010

This is interesting to me pray4pistils. I want to grow organic but i grow primarily outdoors and outdoors chems produce more yield for the effort involved. (This is a known fact in all of the world except among cannabis growers that get defensve if you mention it), Yet heavy doses of nitrogen in the spring and then pottasium during flower can drive down ph by as much as 2 points from where it started in the spring causing problems with flower developement so a balance between the 2 has to be the answer.

Further, there are some problems using organic ferts outdoors because alfalpha, bone meal, bloodmeal and all of the other food crops used in the mixtures result in animals digging the plants up . Fish emulsions attract raccons terribly. Unless there arent any animals around an outdoor grower has to use chems.

This year i have prepared each planting site with rich, dark, balanced soil, but im going to hit it with a big dose of ferts about 3 weeks before planting. Right now, when i turn the soil its full of earthworms, idicating good quality. Im anxious to see if they vacate the area with the application of chems.

pray4pistils · Mar 24, 2010

philcollins said:
I have watched a local grow go from pure chem...to pure organic...to organic/chem, similar to what u are doing...and the results of the combo method are excellent....the taste is there...aroma is there....and the yeilds. Dude swears by it now. The last batch was commented on by several folks as being, the best weed ever!

Right ON. That's precisely what I've witnessed. Were you able to glean any tasty info tidbits from this grow? I'm absolutely still a student with this and desire as much input as I can get.

RNDZL said:
nothing new... botanicare feed schedule for power series is a hybrid synth. organic schedule... works great

That's great. Have you incorporated this into your own growing practice? What has your experience been? Let's hear some details!

By the way, I do realize that plenty of folks grow with a somewhat hybrid technique. In fact, that's precisely what goes on outdoors in conventional farming. Rather, the "new" in what I'm going to demonstrate is the specific processes that work in a hydro environment. For example, we'll get into topics like changing organic foods to specifically move pH up or down. For that matter, what pH is appropriate in the first place? Or, what nute concentrations work with hybrid growing. I've never seen this before.

Hey... how does "Hybrid Nutrient Technique" sound as a decent description? That should avoid arguments with the organic Nazi sheep people.

pray4pistils · Mar 24, 2010

D.S. Toker. MD said:
There are some problems using organic ferts outdoors because alfalpha, bone meal, bloodmeal and all of the other food crops result in animals digging up the plants and have to be avoided.

Yeah, I can imagine predators digging to find the blood, bones, etc. Which animals want your alfalfa, though?

Right now, when i turn the soil its full of earthworms, idicating good quality. Im anxious to see if they vacate the area with the application of chems.

Well, I started this hybrid thing in hempy buckets filled with perlite, vermiculite, and earthworm castings. Organic teas were applied regularly. While cleaning out the buckets I discovered something truly joyous -EARTHWORMS. Appreciate that this was in a largely synthetic grow medium. That fat worms were thriving down there is proof that an entire "soil"/food chain can be established even in a non-traditional environment. Thus, I suspect that you'll achieve the results that you seek without any synthetic chemical problems at all.

dubwise · Mar 24, 2010

this is very interesting...but help me understand something...where did the earthworms come from (in your hempy buckets?)

pray4pistils · Mar 24, 2010

Dubwise, there must have been eggs in the earthworm castings that I mixed in with the grow mix. I had no idea that the little wrigglers were down there until I began discarding the bucket's contents.

Here's the recipe:
55% perlite
20% vermiculite
15% coco coir
10% earthworm castings

The worms are top predators in soil. So, that supports the idea that the bacteria, protozoa, nematodes, and other microbes were also present. It was this worm discovery that kicked my mind into high gear about "hybrid nutrition". Yeah... whaddya think of that term, dude? The more I say it the more it makes sense to me.

love? · Mar 24, 2010

IMO organic is 100% organic and the rest... isn't organic and doesn't really need a "term". If you make a food product from half organic produce because it improves the taste you can't sell it as an organic product...

BTW. I use the hybrid technique (in soil) because it's more convenient to just get my veg nutes from the grocery store than from all the way from the hydro store, otherwise I'd probably be all organic.

Clackamas Coot · Mar 24, 2010

pray4pistils

re: Fish Hydrolysate vs Fish Emulsion

I lifted this quote from EarthFort.com which is aligned with the Soil Food Web organization in Corvallis, Oregon - the 'Teaming With Microbes' crew

Fish hydrolysate is cold processed (minced, enzymatically digested and liquefied) to preserve proteins for quick turnover by microbes into nutrients for plants. This process distinguishes fish hydrolysate from fish emulsion which is processed with heat; removing oils (fungal foods) and denaturing nutrients and beneficial bacteria. Hydrolysate retains the natural oils from the fish that are a very potent fungal food.

Because of cold processing, fish hydrolysate must be stabilized at a low pH. We recommend hydrolysates that are stabilized with sulfuric or phosphoric acid.

Because of the heavy concentration of heavy metals in fish emulsions most organic farmers/growers choose other options like fish hydrolysate.

HTH

CC

pray4pistils · Mar 24, 2010

love? said:
IMO organic is 100% organic and the rest... isn't organic and doesn't really need a "term".

So... let's suppose that you accidently drop a teaspoon of refined chemicals in the nute batch over the course of an otherwise pure organic 15 week grow cycle. All of a sudden the plant's organic status is ruined? Suddenly the produce is no longer fit for consumption? That is not what I call a practical/common sense approach.

What I'm advocating is a blend of techniques to achieve very specific goals. I'm absolutely not pushing for a mix of organic and synthetic nutes to be considered "organic" by the popular (arbitrary) definition. Rather, the goal is to harness the power of both nutrition methods. Synthetics conveniently deliver 90% of the substances that the plant needs in real time. Organics deliver 100% of the good stuff but take more skill, knowledge, and time to do so. Again, an optimal blend of these methods is we're aiming for with my method.

If you make a food product from half organic produce because it improves the taste you can't sell it as an organic product...

Right! But, I don't give a rat's behind. Period. I consider that whole mindset to be snobbish and impractically rigid. It's driven more by politics or ideology than science. No thanks.

Clackamas Coot said:
pray4pistils
re: Fish Hydrolysate vs Fish Emulsion

I knew I recruited you to join this thread for a great reason.

I just picked up a copy of "Teaming With Microbes" yesterday from Amazon, btw. I look forward to that thar fancy book learnin'.

Clackamas Coot · Mar 24, 2010

pray4pistils

Until the book arrives you can wet your interest with this very good summary - link

I stumbled on it yesterday looking for information about protozoa 'soups' and why a farmer/grower might want to use them.

It's the best summary/review that I've found. The author provides page numbers referencing specific topics so you might find that helpful.

HTH

CC

New grow process?/What to call it?

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