Nitrogen def and ???

fishwater · Mar 2, 2010

These WW plants are about 3 weeks old, in LC mix using light warrior, ewc, lime, perlite with some molasses and liquid karma added to the mix. The containers are 2 litre pepsi jugs that have been cut off.
Been watering as needed using wieght test with ph adjusted tap water. (My tap water is well water, and runs 9.1 ph, I use food grad ascorbic acid to bring it down to 6.5)
Plants are under 600w MH crossover bulb, about 2 feet. 24/7
Temps run at 77F to 81F
RH is 40%
Ventilation is good, open door to room with an oscilating fan brushing the tops, 15 minutes on, 15 minutes off.
The yellowing started 3 days ago, so I mixed some Earthjuice Grow (Mild.. 1/2 tbs/gallon) and let it set. The ph was 5.8. I just gave the plants some last night, but the yellowing is worse today and the brown spots, even on the green leaves are indicating I have another problem.
I tested ph run off, on another pot of the same soil, and it was 6.5.
Hopefully you can see the dark spots on some of the green leaves.
Also hopefully you can see the roots in the bottoms of the containers.
I dont beleive they are rootbound yet.
I have ten other plants going, that are a little younger than these, as I had some germination problems and had to restart some to get up to my legal limit of 12.
I have some EarthJuice Micro Blast, do you think I should give them a mild dose??
Cant be nute burn cause I havent fed them anything besides whats in the mix...
I do have a few fungus gnats, but added mosquito dunks a few weeks ago, and dont see hardly any now, but still a few, unless they are root aphids, which I hope not. Dont know the symptoms of root aphids....
The yellowing doesnt look as bad in the pictures as in real time.

bigtopsfinn · Mar 2, 2010

I would give them some bigger pots.

Why is the ph 5.8? With soil you should really keep it in the 6's.

fishwater · Mar 2, 2010

Sorry, I was sort of rambling and didnt explain the ph too well..
The 5.8 ph was with the earthjuice nutes, first time they have been fed was last night... before that they were getting 6.5 adjusted tap water and thats all. So the ph should be fine. And the spotting started before last night....
I had an extra pot of the mix and ran some of the 5.8 thru it to test the run off. The Dolomite Lime I have in the mix raised the run-off to 6.5.
Yes bigger pots wont hurt these two, but I have some even younger plants that are just showing signs of this as well and I know their roots havent filled the pot yet. I will transplant these two tomorrow tho, sometimes transplanting cures a lot of things.

RedBull, they havent been overwatered, as a matter of fact, a little underwatered. Last night I gave them a good soaking of the light nutes tho. The yellowing is not from that, I am sure. Appreciate the input tho.

I really appreciate the help, and would like to hear more from all of you.
Thanks

fishwater · Mar 3, 2010

I have a new theory. The combination of the Dolomitic Lime and my 9ph tapwater, even tho I adjust it down with Citric Acid (not ascorbic acid) is leaving my soil ph too high. I thought the citric acid would keep ph down, but I tested a jug that had been sitting for maybe 5 days and it was up to 7.5 and started at 6.5. I tested the runoff from the old 7.5 thru a sample pot of mix and came up with a 8.4 runoff...... Gotta be the problem, doesnt it???

Any input is appreciated

MynameStitch · Mar 4, 2010

I don't see a pH problem, I see the plants getting hungry and since you just fed them, wait; they do not change overnight and the affected leaves won't recover......
Just make sure it does not spread, they will be needed new pots too.

Before your fed them yesterday when was the last time they were fed? and how much?

absorbic acid will not last and get used up very quickly. It's not stable.
Using of pH down product from hydro shop or a pet store as long as it's safe on plants and it's the proper pH.

These plants are extremely healthy, minus the single bladed leaves, which all plants drop, if they last on the plant until the stages you see, they have gotten everything they have needed, the plants use those for storage just like any other, so if you see those the way they are now they will start to get hungry, the bigger leaves are next so your plant needed food, those plants are happy and I do not see a pH problem with them.

fishwater · Mar 4, 2010

Hopefully these pics are a little better... been two days since I fed them for the first time...

Can you see the spots on the leaves, even on the green leaves....

They are a little overwatered now too, I gave them a good shot of molasses and r/o water trying to lower ph.. High brix lowers r/o water to 5.5. The runoff was 6.3......

Also, I made a mistake in saying I was using ascorbic acid to ph my water. It is actually food grade citric acid, which is used in many over the counter ph down products.

The yellowing is continueing on up the plants, so when they dry out I am going to transplant them into 3 gallon of nice cooked LC mix that has been setting for about a month....

I do have some Earth Juice Micro, which may help if you still dont think I have a ph problem.....

Thanks

MynameStitch · Mar 5, 2010

hey are a little overwatered now too, I gave them a good shot of molasses and r/o water trying to lower ph.. High brix lowers r/o water to 5.5. The runoff was 6.3......

dood your screwing with the pH badly, leave the pH alone! Earthjuice is acidic and should be mixed and sat out for 24 hours before using if possible.

Your run off was 6,3 and your wanting to lower it? Your mixture needs to be up higher 6,3 and higher.

Stop feeding and stop trying to pH adjust, now you got things all screwed up.

Why do you think your pH needs to be lower?

This happened very quickly, only 2 things that happern this quickly are nute burn and pH problems.

Leave the plants a lone, you will have to slightly flush them out with water, do not pH adjust it, once they are starting to dry out transplant them.this spotty effect now is pH issues.

fishwater · Mar 5, 2010

Stitch, the spots were there before, just couldnt see it in the first pics...

Thats the reason I am screwing with the ph....

Yes, the runoff was 6.3, but I had to run 5.5 Hi brix to get that... wehereas before I "thought" I was running 6.4 adusted water. Turned out I was letting my jugs set for a few days and was actually giving them 7.5. Thats when the spots on the leaves were coming in. The runoff from adding the 7.5 was coming out 8.5...

Someone on here uses the citric acid for ph down with good results, and has the same 9ph water, so I thought I had it licked. But, I didnt realize that it would go away so fast. I guess it makes sense tho, all that lime in the mix neutalizes the acid within a day or two, and since I only water every 3-4 days, the ph is sky high again by the time I water..

Therefore, I concluded that the ph spots were coming from too high ph... and since the plants were fed and still very damp, I decided to use the HiBrix as a flush, and bring ph down some at same time.

And yes, I am going to let them dry out and transplant them....

Dont be mad at me Stitch.... I really do appreciate your help...

My last grow was doing the same thing, but I didnt have any lime in the soil, so I thought that would help this time. And I was using some store bought ph down for my damned 9.1ph water. It didnt really work out to well for me...

The good news is, I am moving to a new place in a few weeks that has a natural spring for a water supply. I havent gotten a chance to test it yet, but it is right up against the bottom of some 10,000 foot mountains, and I know the water will be much much better than this sulphur 9.1 I got now....

Feel free to comment anyone... Let me know if I am all screwed in the head... over analyzing is one of my most fun traits......

And Stitch once again, thank you... but keep telling me what I need....

Thanks

MynameStitch · Mar 5, 2010

oh, of course I am not mad; I don't get mad when I trying to help people out

Did the jugs just have water sitting out or nutes in them?
Just make sure you keep the pH stable, watch for the spotting to stop.

Ya, I seen the spotting in the previous picture, but these look more spreaded.
One other thing I forgot to mention, if you got well water and it comes out of the tap that high, you need a better filtration system..... if you get some of solid mineral salts out of the water your pH will go down......

Your water is hard as hell!

Since your moving though you don't got to worry about it

Right now it sounds like you got everything going now, you flushed her out to help correct the pH and now you just have to wait, they may show deficiencies in the process of recovering.... but just keep an eye on the spotting...... because if it's srepading the pH is still not right... but I doubt you will have this problem..

keep me updated alright

fishwater · Mar 5, 2010

Ok Stitch... Thanks again...

Filtration system??? what filtration system?????? heahea....

The jugs just had water with the citric acid in them.. sealed.. maybe set for 3 days...

My water is really fucked up.. 310 EC and only 155 ppm ... and smells of sulphur, which should make it acidic... be glad to get away from it.. The bad thing is that its a nice log house, with 30 feet of glass across the front, easy to heat.... 2500 sqft... moving to an old shack about 1400 sqft, with little windows... but hopefully good water.......

I will transplant tomorrow, I tested one and its dry enough to get out of the jug...

Thanks for not giving up on me...

Fishwater

MynameStitch · Mar 6, 2010

lol normally when people use a well they have a well filtration system to filter out bad stuff

Sounds like a good house ya live in! Love cabins!

damn that is messed up... 310 ec does not equal 155...... do you mean 0.3 or something?
Na, don't worry I don't give up to easily; it takes a lot to kill my patience.

One thing I don't like is a overly lazy person though.

fishwater · Mar 6, 2010

transplanted every one today... made the 40 mile trip to town and bought 10 gallons of r/o drinking water. the mix has a little moisture to it, but will water everyone with r/o water tonight before I crash......
The water here is no good.. cant seem to make it work. I tried some store bought ph down last grow.
And no, the EC is 310 and ppm 155... $125 hanna meter... and I have the calibration fluids

The house I am moving to belongs to my high school math teacher. That was 35 years ago, first time I talked to him since. Kinda wild, isnt it?

The well water around this area apparently sucks, but I am moving about 40 miles away.
And in this state, not much need for well filters yet, but I suppose it is coming. I used to drill water wells, so I know a little about water. Too bad I didnt now about what water is best for growing MMJ.

The picture in my avitar is about 2 miles from my new pad. So the spring water should run about 6.8.. I will check it this week..

I will give you some pics of the transpants in a day or two, I have one WW that looks like its over watered all the time, cause the leaves are droopy, but I think thats just the way it wants to be....

Thanks again Stitch.... You are helping and I like it... I loaned your book out to a buddy, I need to get it back.....

Ok, Night now.....

MynameStitch · Mar 7, 2010

Hey sounds like you got some nice water where your going. The mountains are awesome for growing, not much people around ya and no one but the wild life to bother you.

How are your plants doing now?
I try to help out, if I don't know I don't help out I am still learning myself! It's cool, because I am always wanting to learn new things.

lol I have heard some people getting the book and having to buy another, because the other person did not give it back!

fishwater · Mar 7, 2010

Plants are not getting any worse, but dont show much improvement either....

did some experimenting with r/o water and a sample of the lc mix. runoff is 7.25...

I put one cc of ph-down in a gallon of r/o and it dropped ph down to 3.3.... too much

so I tried on tablespoon of Hi-Brix and dropped ph to 4.5... I watered a test pot of that and got a runoff of 7.1....

I am just wondering, I bought my Dolomitic Lime from Worms Way. It is called Sunleaves Soil Sweetner, is very very fine. The directions on the bag say 2 Tbsp per 5 gallon of soil. I was following LC's recipe and did 2 Tbsp per ONE Gallon... I should of read the bag first, but who knows. So now, I have 40 gallons of this mix, and everything transplanted in it, and cant even water it with r/o without having high ph...

Wasnt a very bright move when you have 9 ph water all ready...

The mix was slightly damp when I transplanted yesterday, so I havent watered with anything yet.
I cant seem to get the r/o water adjusted very easy. Takes just a minute amount to not lower it to ph3...
My tapwater, ph9, I put 5 ccs of ph down in and it goes down to 5.8 ph, and gives a runoff of 6.5. So, I think I am going to go that route.

What do you think>??????

beejium · Mar 7, 2010

fishwater said:
Plants are not getting any worse, but dont show much improvement either....

did some experimenting with r/o water and a sample of the lc mix. runoff is 7.25...

I put one cc of ph-down in a gallon of r/o and it dropped ph down to 3.3.... too much

so I tried on tablespoon of Hi-Brix and dropped ph to 4.5... I watered a test pot of that and got a runoff of 7.1....

I am just wondering, I bought my Dolomitic Lime from Worms Way. It is called Sunleaves Soil Sweetner, is very very fine. The directions on the bag say 2 Tbsp per 5 gallon of soil. I was following LC's recipe and did 2 Tbsp per ONE Gallon... I should of read the bag first, but who knows. So now, I have 40 gallons of this mix, and everything transplanted in it, and cant even water it with r/o without having high ph...

Wasnt a very bright move when you have 9 ph water all ready...

The mix was slightly damp when I transplanted yesterday, so I havent watered with anything yet.
I cant seem to get the r/o water adjusted very easy. Takes just a minute amount to not lower it to ph3...
My tapwater, ph9, I put 5 ccs of ph down in and it goes down to 5.8 ph, and gives a runoff of 6.5. So, I think I am going to go that route.

What do you think>??????

i'm not MynameStitch, but this may help.
follow LCs mix to the T and you will have great results. i don't pH even with tap water that fluctuates from 7.5 to 8.5. burn1 says that pH doesn't matter with organics. (scroll down to right before the comments on the organics for beginners sticky) i found it to be kinda like a game of hand grenades.... just gotta be close.

fishwater · Mar 8, 2010

Thread: Organics for BeginnersView Single Post
Today, 03:19 PM #2250
fishwater
Member

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 105
LC#2 problems

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am trying my first purely organic grow using LC#2, mixed to a "T" using FFOF and Sunshine, perlite, EWC, and powdered dolomitic lime. I also added blood and bone meal, green sand, kelp, and the only thing I added extra was Myco Maximum to get a jump start on the micro herd... I let it cook in a covered tub in the living room for about a month. I kept it moist with some Hi Brix and Liquid Karma mixed with my water.
I started the seedlings in #2mix but used Light Warrior instead of FFOF and the sunshine and didnt add the nutes to the seedling mix. I used two litre pepsi jugs,cut in half.

I know a lot of people here say dont worry about the ph, but I have well water that runs about 9ph, so I got some food grade citric acid crystals and added 1/4 tsp per gallon of water which brought ph down to 6.5 at the time it was mixed. I mixed a few gallons up at a time, watered with a spray bottle along edges of containers as needed. Everything was looking good until about 3 weeks, I started getting some yellowing, looked like N def to me so I mixed some half strength Earth Juice Grow and fed them. I checked ph before I fed and it was around 6 if I remember right.

Next morning I get spots showing up on the leaves, even some of the green leaves that werent yellowing yet. Looked like this:

So I figure ph is going wacky on me somehow. I then checked the citric acid water I had been using and had risen up to 7.5, which I didnt think would bother me, but could find no other explanation.
I transplanted the plants a day later, into the nuted LC#2, and watered with 1tblsp Hi Brix (molasses) per gallon of 9ph water which brought ph down to 5.8. That has been 3 days ago and plants look like this now:
[/ATTACH]
Today, I got curious and decided to do some tests. I have some left over LC#2 mix, so I put it in some pots. Got some r/o water and tested the run off.. 7.25 ph runoff. So I started ph'ing some well water using the Hi Brix to bring it down. I got some down to 5.2 ph with 2tbls and tested the runoff from that, it tests at 7.1runoff...
My well water is runoff is at 7.7ph... with the veg LC#2.. I dont have any of the seedling mix to check what it was...

Wouldnt you say I have ph problems?

I know this mix is supposed to be bullet proof, but I am having troubles.. Since transplant one more set of leaves have shown signs of ph lockout. Some of the younger plants started showing signs of N def but have stopped since transplant...

Thanks to all of you for ready my ramblings, I need some suggestions to keep this from happening again. And some suggestions to keep them alive this time.

I was going to water with r/o water after all this shit happened, but now since I tested its run off, I am not so sure I shouldnt water with the molasses everytime for a while to get ph down. Next time, I will cut down on the lime I use or just get some pure peat to use instead of the hi dollar ffof...

Help me if you can, All suggestions welcome.......

Fishwater

I posted this in the Organics for Beginners and tried to transfer here... dont know if pictures came thru......

beejium · Mar 8, 2010

fishwater said:
Thread: Organics for BeginnersView Single Post
Today, 03:19 PM #2250
fishwater
Member

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 105
LC#2 problems

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am trying my first purely organic grow using LC#2, mixed to a "T" using FFOF and Sunshine, perlite, EWC, and powdered dolomitic lime. I also added blood and bone meal, green sand, kelp, and the only thing I added extra was Myco Maximum to get a jump start on the micro herd... I let it cook in a covered tub in the living room for about a month. I kept it moist with some Hi Brix and Liquid Karma mixed with my water.
I started the seedlings in #2mix but used Light Warrior instead of FFOF and the sunshine and didnt add the nutes to the seedling mix. I used two litre pepsi jugs,cut in half.

I know a lot of people here say dont worry about the ph, but I have well water that runs about 9ph, so I got some food grade citric acid crystals and added 1/4 tsp per gallon of water which brought ph down to 6.5 at the time it was mixed. I mixed a few gallons up at a time, watered with a spray bottle along edges of containers as needed. Everything was looking good until about 3 weeks, I started getting some yellowing, looked like N def to me so I mixed some half strength Earth Juice Grow and fed them. I checked ph before I fed and it was around 6 if I remember right.

Next morning I get spots showing up on the leaves, even some of the green leaves that werent yellowing yet. Looked like this:

So I figure ph is going wacky on me somehow. I then checked the citric acid water I had been using and had risen up to 7.5, which I didnt think would bother me, but could find no other explanation.
I transplanted the plants a day later, into the nuted LC#2, and watered with 1tblsp Hi Brix (molasses) per gallon of 9ph water which brought ph down to 5.8. That has been 3 days ago and plants look like this now:
[/ATTACH]
Today, I got curious and decided to do some tests. I have some left over LC#2 mix, so I put it in some pots. Got some r/o water and tested the run off.. 7.25 ph runoff. So I started ph'ing some well water using the Hi Brix to bring it down. I got some down to 5.2 ph with 2tbls and tested the runoff from that, it tests at 7.1runoff...
My well water is runoff is at 7.7ph... with the veg LC#2.. I dont have any of the seedling mix to check what it was...

Wouldnt you say I have ph problems?

I know this mix is supposed to be bullet proof, but I am having troubles.. Since transplant one more set of leaves have shown signs of ph lockout. Some of the younger plants started showing signs of N def but have stopped since transplant...

Thanks to all of you for ready my ramblings, I need some suggestions to keep this from happening again. And some suggestions to keep them alive this time.

I was going to water with r/o water after all this shit happened, but now since I tested its run off, I am not so sure I shouldnt water with the molasses everytime for a while to get ph down. Next time, I will cut down on the lime I use or just get some pure peat to use instead of the hi dollar ffof...

Help me if you can, All suggestions welcome.......

Fishwater

I posted this in the Organics for Beginners and tried to transfer here... dont know if pictures came thru......

if your water is that funky get an ro system ~$150. dehumidifiers put out distilled water(ph5-7); just make sure that it's a newer one so there are no parts that may leach metals.
did you let the soil cook before you used it? do you have worm castings in the mix to work with the lime you put in? after all the micro herd munches the pH to an acceptable level not so much the lime...
if watering every day with molasses cut down to 1 tsp, or you will have a solid rock for soil.
can you get some pics up so people can see how bad off your plants are?
if you are sure it's your water get some bottled water and use it for a cycle or two and note any changes. this will tell you if you need the equipment.

fishwater · Mar 9, 2010

[/ATTACH]

The last pic is day before I transplanted and is the same plant as in the corner of the grow....

tsp of molasses wont bring ph down enough... Burn1 has mentioned that using store bought ph down will harm the micros...
I will probably use the citric acid every other watering

Yes the mix cooked for a month

fishwater · Mar 9, 2010

todays pics

todays pics

Took these today after being transplanted for 2-3 days??

They have stopped getting worse, but are not advancing probably a little transplant shock.

Some have advised to re-transplant in a lower base soil mix..

What do you think?

The last pic is one never seen before, but was yellowing right around the edges of the bottom leaves, doesnt seem any worse tho.

beejium · Mar 10, 2010

if they start getting worse try some distilled water(ph5-7). it should be closer to the range you are looking for. if they were just transplanted i would leave them alone for a few days. you are not going to wake up to dead plants, so it's just something to fiddle with till it's right. just don't make drastic changes.
kinda looks like phosphorus issue, but with the pH fluctuations it's hard to tell if it's: lockout, lacking, or recovering. time will tell.

Nitrogen def and ???

Member

Member

Member

Member

Dr. Doolittle

Member

Dr. Doolittle

Member

Dr. Doolittle

Member

Dr. Doolittle

Member

Dr. Doolittle

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member