Rock Phosphate.

i use powdered rock phosphate in my soil mix - 5g/litre as a secondary source of phosphorous - but i dont know a huge amount about it. ive heard a few people talk about it and people have asked me about it so i thought it may be good to start a thread.

for instance what is 'soft' rock phosphate? how is that different?

thanks

V.

some good info in this small read
http://www.mii.org/Minerals/photophos.html

Rock phosphate: Soft Rock phosphates are generally used, as Hard Rock phosphate is nearly impossible for the plants to utilize. Soft rock phosphates are usually from ancient marine deposits. Rock phosphate is best combined with a livestock or green manure to make it more available to the plants, and to stabilize the nitrogen. As it is very slow to release its phosphate, it is an excellent once a year product for your garden.

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from http://ourgardengang.tripod.com/whbeyondmanure.htm

Rock phosphates are usually derived from ancient marine deposits. They have a different composition than collodial phosphate, generally making them less available. Total phosphate is around 30% and available phosphate 1-2%. They are best used in the same manner as colloidal phosphate, and it is worth paying for several tests to determine how effectively this phosphate moves into manure and soil. It may or may not be a better buy than colloidal, depending greatly on conditions and circumstances.
Hard-rock phosphates are usually derived from igneous volcanic deposits and consist almost totally of the mineral apatite. Although apatite contains about 40% total phosphate, because of the mineral's composition, this phosphate is largely unavailable. In most circumstances it is not a good buy, but in some situations is the ideal product; again, trial and observation are the keys to a wise purchase.

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from http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/altsoilamend.html

What is Soft Rock Phosphate?
Soft rock phosphate is a by-product of the hard rock phosphate mining industry. Hard rock phosphate, also known as tri-calcium phosphate, is treated with sulfuric acid to produce super phosphate . The phosphate content is reduced to a water-soluble form, and the sulfur bonds with the calcium to form gypsum . To produce triple super , the super phosphate is further treated with phosphoric acid to strip out the gypsum and produce a concentrated form of soluble phosphate. Chemical gypsum is a by-product of this refining process.
Soft rock phosphate is the soft, colloidal clay that lies between the various layers of hard rock phosphate. This colloidal clay is washed off and accumulated in settling ponds during the mining process. The phosphate source is completely natural, and it is in fact a truly remarkable fertiliser. It provides tremendous benefits to soil, microbe, and plant life. In contrast to the chemical phosphates, Nutri-Phos improves soil structure, providing ideal microbe conditions, and the earthworms love the stuff.
Soft rock phosphate should not be confused with hard rock phosphate. Hard rock phosphate, or natural rock phosphate, is not plant available. The mined rock is finely crushed, but the end product is released fairly slowly, particularly in alkaline soils.

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fromhttp://www.yladlivingsoils.com.au/product-html/soft-rock-phosphate.htm
great read

radioactive

radioactive

is this the same as apatite (sp.?)

Cannabis Culture had an article some years back about the radioactivity in some fertilizer that is concentrated in the trichomes of cannabis and tobacco plants....should be easy to find with G.

no problem growing vegies with it....no radioactivity....but trichomes, if this is true, is another matter

doesn't cig. packs have radioactivity warnings?

"Apatite is a family of minerals centered around fluorapatite, or calcium phosphate with a bit of fluorine, with the formula Ca5(PO4)3F. Other members of the apatite group have chlorine or hydroxyl take the place of the fluorine; silicon, arsenic or vanadium replace the phosphorus (and carbonate replace the phosphate group); and strontium, lead and other elements substitute for the calcium. The general formula for the apatite group is thus (Ca,Sr,Pb)5[(P,As,V,Si)O4]3(F,Cl,OH). Because fluorapatite makes up the framework of teeth and bones, we have a dietary need for fluorine, phosphorus and calcium.

Apatite is usually green to blue, but its colors and crystal forms vary, and apatite can be mistaken for beryl, tourmaline and other minerals (its name comes from the Greek "apate," deceit). It is most noticeable in pegmatites, where large crystals of even rare minerals are found. The main test of apatite is by its hardness, which is 5 in the Mohs scale. Apatite can be cut as a gemstone, but it is relatively soft.

Apatite also makes up sedimentary beds of phosphate rock. There it is a white or brownish earthy mass, and the mineral must be detected by chemical tests. "


"About 90 percent of the phosphorus that is mined in phosphate rock goes into fertilizer; the rest serves many purposes in the chemical industry. U.S. production hit its peak in 1980 (54 million tons), and growing amounts are imported here from Morocco, where deposits are abundant and the government is firmly controlled.

Like coal and petroleum, phosphate rock accumulates heavy metals that can become a hazard. Chief among these accessory metals are uranium, radium and cadmium. Unlike the case with coal and petroleum, these do not enter the air because phosphate rock is not burned, but they remain in the sulfate waste from processing, called phosphogypsum. This waste may be spread on farmland, processed like gypsum into wallboard or simply put in massive piles. Either way, these unwanted metals can enter the human organism, adding to our load of toxins and radiation.

It is also said that radioactive contaminants in phosphate fertilizers account for a significant fraction of the cancers caused by smoking tobacco. "




I am looking into rock phosphate more, as I do not use bone anymore, so I will write back when I find more

Thanks Habeeb

Thanks Habeeb

great research and write-up

once this mineral is placed on soil it cannot be gotten rid of is my thinking...maybe "why" the tobacco companies could not easily switch to a cleaner product

once had a 5 gal. bucket of this stuff...tossed it and all soil which had it....not sure on this: does blooming chemical ferts. have radioactivity?

for production plants I will only use guano blooming nutes...if I am making seeds, then I will supplement with GH flora and later throw that particular soil away...as a precaution

all the best

looking at DARC MIND'S posts,

i think its the hard rock phosphate that is apetite

soft rock phosphate comes from marine deposits.

keep it coming,

V.

Tell me Azomite is okay..

Edit:

That made me check.. Why is it we are not using Geiger counters on our materials? They are not so expensive

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00051E906/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=1202777381&ref=pd_sl_7hw7xz0pwj_b
about $160.00 US

I think I may want to have a unit on hand.. Sounds like an Organic Soil no brainer.

wow, amazing how a person can miss risk like radiation in fertilizer

glad I switch to guano

but, I'd sure like to know what phosphates may be safest

I found an MSDS for a rock phosphate fert, although I couldn't find the 'espoma' brand that I used to use.
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...&gl=us&sig=AHIEtbSSpHdGPpk0XBX-fv5aWYb-DU7yOg





Seeing this is enough to prevent me from buying the 30lb bag that I had lined up. I'm not going to worry about it as a nute in the bottles, because I don't feed bottles very much at all.

VerdantGreen said:

looking at DARC MIND'S posts,

i think its the hard rock phosphate that is apetite

soft rock phosphate comes from marine deposits.

keep it coming,

V.

Click to expand...

from my understanding,
soft rock phosphate is safe and i believe it is a great soil amendment for organic growers and gardeners. I have used it on a few grows in conjunction w/ other amendments and all went well.
I believe its hard, super and triple that are not best for us organic heads.
the birds recommended soft rock P!
some more info

Soft Rock vs Heavy Metal
Any discussion of the relative merits of phosphate inputs must necessarily include environmental and health considerations. There is an increasing awareness of the dangers of heavy metal contamination amongst many growers. We are often asked about cadmium levels in our product, because rock phosphate, the source of all chemical phosphates, is notorious for heavy concentrations of cadmium. ****** Soft Rock Phosphate has no cadmium problem. It is, in fact, one of the cleanest sources of phosphate available.
The rock phosphate, used in the manufacture of super phosphate in the various concentrates, is imported. Unfortunately cadmium rears its ugly head when these products are analyses. Chemical gypsum, the by-product of the refining process, has proven the worst offender to date. In fact, it appears likely that this product will be removed from the market in the not too distant future. All of the acid treated phosphates suffer to some degree from cadmium contamination.
Cadmium is the most toxic of all the heavy metals. It has a tendency to accumulate in both leaf and root vegetables and can contribute to serious health problems for livestock and humans. The musical analogy is appropriate here. Soft rock music is gentle and appealing, but the heavy metal, head banging alternative is counterproductive for both health and well-being.
Soft rock phosphate, then, is one of the very few ethical alternatives that don't involve a financial penalty. .

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from http://www.yladlivingsoils.com.au/product-html/soft-rock-phosphate.htm

JackTheGrower said:

Tell me Azomite is okay..

Edit:

That made me check.. Why is it we are not using Geiger counters on our materials? They are not so expensive

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00051E906/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=1202777381&ref=pd_sl_7hw7xz0pwj_b
about $160.00 US

I think I may want to have a unit on hand.. Sounds like an Organic Soil no brainer.

Click to expand...

I have not gotten my Geiger counter yet because I was saving up for the 600.00 microscope.

Jack was you thinking of a group purchase?

V

organic soilers...

VerdantGreen said:

Rock Phosphate.
i use powdered rock phosphate in my soil mix - 5g/litre as a secondary source of phosphorous - but i dont know a huge amount about it. ive heard a few people talk about it and people have asked me about it so i thought it may be good to start a thread.

for instance what is 'soft' rock phosphate? how is that different?

thanks

V.

Click to expand...

soft rock phosphate is more readily available to plants (water soluble) than hard rock phosphate.
hard rock phosphate have greater concentrations of compounds/elements.
the granulated form seems to work better for way to control application rates...
powdered form dissolves very quickly. & leaches faster as well.
can top-dress & watch how slowly it dissolves, then guage reaction. can include in mix & just follow box/bag instructions.

prefer to mix in 1/4 bag instructions, then top-dress & water on those granules when desired. avoiding watering top-dressed granules when dont want to apply.

JackTheGrower said:

Tell me Azomite is okay..

Click to expand...

azomite is ok.

enjoy your garden!

Malmo-Levine's article

Malmo-Levine's article

Radioactive tobacco

By David Malmo-Levine - Wednesday, January 2 2002 Tags:

• CC35
• Health Issues
• MEDICAL MARIJUANA
• Miscellaneous
• OTHER DRUGS

It's not tobacco's tar which kills, but the radiation!
Cannabis is often compared to tobacco, with the damage caused by smoking tobacco given as a reason to prohibit use of cannabis. Yet most of the harms caused by tobacco use are due not to tar, but to the use of radioactive fertilizers. Surprisingly, radiation seems to be the most dangerous and important factor behind tobacco lung damage.
Radioactive fertilizer
It's a well established but little known fact that commercially grown tobacco is contaminated with radiation. The major source of this radiation is phosphate fertilizer.1 The big tobacco companies all use chemical phosphate fertilizer, which is high in radioactive metals, year after year on the same soil. These metals build up in the soil, attach themselves to the resinous tobacco leaf and ride tobacco trichomes in tobacco smoke, gathering in small "hot spots" in the small-air passageways of the lungs.2 Tobacco is especially effective at absorbing radioactive elements from phosphate fertilizers, and also from naturally occurring radiation in the soil, air, and water.3
To grow what the tobacco industry calls "more flavorful" tobacco, US farmers use high-phosphate fertilizers. The phosphate is taken from a rock mineral, apatite, that is ground into powder, dissolved in acid and further processed. Apatite rock also contains radium, and the radioactive elements lead 210 and polonium 210. The radioactivity of common chemical fertilizer can be verified with a Geiger-Mueller counter and an open sack of everyday 13-13-13 type of fertilizer (or any other chemical fertilizer high in phosphate content).4


Conservative estimates put the level of radiation absorbed by a pack-and-a-half a day smoker at the equivalent of 300 chest X-rays every year.5 The Office of Radiation, Chemical & Biological Safety at Michigan State University reports that the radiation level for the same smoker was as high as 800 chest X-rays per year.6 Another report argues that a typical nicotine user might be getting the equivalent of almost 22,000 chest X-rays per year.7
US Surgeon General C Everett Koop stated on national television in 1990 that tobacco radiation is probably responsible for 90% of tobacco-related cancer.8 Dr RT Ravenholt, former director of World Health Surveys at the Centers for Disease Control, has stated that "Americans are exposed to far more radiation from tobacco smoke than from any other source."9
Researchers have induced cancer in animal test subjects that inhaled polonium 210, but were unable to cause cancer through the inhalation of any of the non-radioactive chemical carcinogens found in tobacco.10 The most potent non-radioactive chemical, benzopyrene, exists in cigarettes in amounts sufficient to account for only 1% of the cancer found in smokers.9
Smoke screen
Surprisingly, the US National Cancer Institute, with an annual budget of $500 million, has no active grants for research on radiation as a cause of lung cancer.1
Tobacco smoking has been popular for centuries,11 but lung cancer rates have only increased significantly after the 1930's.12 In 1930 the lung cancer death rate for white US males was 3.8 per 100,000 people. By 1956 the rate had increased almost tenfold, to 31 per 100,000.13 Between 1938 and 1960, the level of polonium 210 in American tobacco tripled, commensurate with the increased use of chemical fertilizers.14
Publicly available internal memos of tobacco giant Philip Morris indicate that the tobacco corporation was well aware of radiation contamination in 1974, and that they had means to remove polonium from tobacco in 1980, by using ammonium phosphate as a fertilizer, instead of calcium phosphate. One memo describes switching to ammonium phosphate as a "valid but expensive point."15
Attorney Amos Hausner, son of the prosecutor who sent Nazi Adolf Eichmann to the gallows, is using these memos as evidence to fight the biggest lawsuit in Israel's history, to make one Israeli and six US tobacco companies pay up to $8 billion for allegedly poisoning Israelis with radioactive cigarettes.16
image: AdbustersOrganic solutions
The radioactive elements in phosphate fertilizers also make their way into our food and drink. Many food products, especially nuts, fruits, and leafy plants like tobacco absorb radioactive elements from the soil, and concentrate them within themselves.17
The fluorosilicic acid used to make the "fluoridated water" most of us get from our taps is made from various fluorine gases captured in pollution scrubbers during the manufacture of phosphate fertilizers. This fluoride solution put into our water for "strong teeth" also contains radioactive elements from the phosphate extraction.18
Although eating and drinking radioactive products is not beneficial, the most harmful and direct way to consume these elements is through smoking them.19
The unnecessary radiation delivered from soil-damaging, synthetic chemical fertilizers can easily be reduced through the use of alternative phosphate sources including organic fertilizers.20 In one test, an organic fertilizer appeared to emit less alpha radiation than a chemical fertilizer.21 More tests are needed to confirm this vital bit of harm-reduction information.
Organic fertilizers such as organic vegetable compost, animal manure, wood ash and seaweed have proven to be sustainable and non-harmful to microbes, worms, farmers and eaters or smokers. Chemical phosphates may seem like a bargain compared to natural phosphorous, until you factor in the health and environmental costs.
To ensure that cannabis remains the safest way to get high, we must always use organic fertilizers and non-toxic pesticides. We should also properly cure the buds, take advantage of high-potency breeding and use smart-smoking devices like vaporizers and double-chambered glass water bongs. These will all help to address concern over potential lung damage far more effectively than either a jail cell or a 12-step program.
Tobacco smokers can also use this information to avoid radioactive brands of tobacco. American Spirit is one of a few companies that offers an organic line of cigarettes, and organic cigars are also available from a few companies. You can also grow your own tobacco, which is surprisingly easy and fun.
Until the public has an accurate understanding of how phosphate fertilizers carry radiation, and why commercial tobacco causes lung cancer but cannabis does not, there will be many needless tobacco-related deaths, and increased resistance to the full legalization of marijuana. image: Adbusters
References
1. Winters, TH and Franza, JR. 'Radioactivity in Cigarette Smoke,' New England Journal of Medicine, 1982. 306(6): 364-365, web
2. Edward A Martell, PhD. 'Letter to the Editor,' New England Journal of Medicine, 1982. 307(5): 309-313, web
3. Ponte, Lowell. 'Radioactivity: The New-Found Danger in Cigarettes,' Reader's Digest, March 1986. pp. 123-127.
4. Kilthau, GF. 'Cancer risk in relation to radioactivity in tobacco,' Radiologic Technology, Vol 67, January 11, 1996,


Probably the best bud I ever grew I tossed (about an ounce) because of this concern ...an outdoor Sativa tropically grown for 210 days (Shanti's old El Nino X Jack Herer)...totally frosted out bud, devastatingly potent (one hit quit)....really jacked my lungs...read this article and got concerned since this plant was top-dressed with the soft rock...had plenty of bud at that time, so did what I thought was best for the health (very hard decision still..at the time...afterall...210 days of care)

all the best

The big tobacco companies all use chemical phosphate fertilizer, which is high in radioactive metals, year after year on the same soil.*******To grow what the tobacco industry calls "more flavorful" tobacco, US farmers use high-phosphate fertilizers. The phosphate is taken from a rock mineral, apatite, that is ground into powder, dissolved in acid and further processed. Apatite rock also contains radium, and the radioactive elements lead 210 and polonium 210. The radioactivity of common chemical fertilizer can be verified with a Geiger-Mueller counter and an open sack of everyday 13-13-13 type of fertilizer (or any other chemical fertilizer high in phosphate content).4

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spliphy said:

read this article and got concerned since this plant was top-dressed with the soft rock

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i believe soft rock is safe / natural and in my links and quotes explains it should not be confused with hard rock. IMO if you top dressed with soft rock u should be cool.
I believe most tobacco is not grown organic and use hard rock, super and triple for P.

spliphy, you chucked an ounce of great bud because it was grown with "soft rock" which is not the same as apatite.

Reading the above, I had the feeling I must be reading half truths. Always be on your guard when reading such advocacy pieces, and don't throw away ounces of bud in response.

I can agree totally that there is no need for triple phosphate, ever. But I can't agree that if we just avoid apatite derived fertilizer we can smoke two packs a day and not get lung cancer.

I also have to disagree with the way the article preys on our fear of radiation, as if it is not all around us all the time. It may be right or wrong about in the end, but it is using irrational fear to accomplish the goal.

i have been topdressing with granulated superphosphate

.....

misstress, that's just silly.

tobacco fields are flushed more than your containers. While I agree that the article is "off" somehow, and have no time to debunk it, you are very much missing the point.

The isotopes mentioned were lead and polonium, no? Are these present as salts? do they bioaccumulate, or flush away? does flushing really remove all the salts from media anyway? no! I've personally had to do bare root transplants because you can't flush the rootball of its salts.

*mistress* said:

granulated phosphates are ok... as long as you dont use the same soil for 10 years, & never flush... as w/ any fertilizer.

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i disagree, SRP is safer and better @ getting the job done as a natural soil amendment. As for never flushing and not using the same soil for 10+ years???
my soil is 7 years old and running stronger then ever and im a no flusher. im thinking properly recycled & managed organic soil can be used for ever ever