Carbs: A Wolf in Sheeps Clothing (warn)

What!?! You say...Let me elaborate a little:

Plants like cannabis produce carbohydrates (among other substances, etc) as a result of photosynthesis. About 25% of *all* the carbs the plant produces are sent to the roots and the rhizosphere to feed the microherd. A normally functioning and healthy cannabis plant will be able to provide all the carbs, and other exudes, needed by the microbes. Some of these carbs are unique, like those which feed AM fungi.

There is a discrete yet amazing interaction between plants, bacteria and fungi. Root exudes are a major way the plant communicates with microbes. And the microbes can communicate with the plant too. It seems some microbes can signal for food, and thus, the plant can make carbs available (for example).

As far as I am aware, plants like healthy cannabis do not need, nor benefit, from external application of carbs like molasses and other products like "sweet", etc. I assume elements within these products are minerals by microbes and thus can be useful to plants, and maybe some other chemicals, but, IMO the benefits are minimal and would not be noticeable. An unhealthy plant probably could benefit for added carbs, as could the microherd, or lack there of.

IMO a healthy and established cannabis plant does not need, nor greatly benefit from application of carbohydrates. Nor will the microherd benefit, unless they are lacking food for some reason. Quite the opposite, to me it seems external carbs could mess up the interactions between plant, bacteria and fungi. If the microbes become used to/dependent upon extra applications of carbs the plant could suffer, at least that's my take on it. Regardless, IMO constant use of carbs is not only a waste of money, but can be doing more harm than good. A major concern to me is the likelihood of 'bacterial bloom' from the carbs, which can throw off the rhizosphere's microbial balance and other ills...

Many people make wild speculative claims attributed to molasses, or other carbs, yet to my understanding they are not attributable: carbs do not do what it is claimed they do.

SO, considering plants roots are actually emitting carbs (in a manner of speaking) to feed and interact with the microherd, to me, makes adding carbs to 'help' the plant seem kind of senseless. And can actually hinder the microbes and plant in turn. Applying ACT fed molasses during brewing does not count, as it has been processed to some degree by the microbes in the ACT which have already experienced bacteria bloom.

IMO adding carbs on a regular basis is not wise, unless the plant is unhealthy and the grower thinks the microbes are in bad shape. Also, if adding molasses then it's also wise to add humic acid and hydrolyzed fish for fungi to help balance growth of bacteria.

I disagree that carbs make cannabis buds smell or taste better. I have tested brix levels (other factors affecting brix on the side) of clones with and without added molasses. The clones which got molasses did not have an appreciable increase in brix over the controls. I find buds which are not over fertilizer, or otherwise mis-handled, taste and smell as well as those which were given carbs.

OK, fire away! Opinions? Agreements? Thoughts?

Nice post ganja. Agreed.

what about carbs in your tea though? the little boogers need something to eat don't they? i've never just poured molasses in the dirt, just in tea, so maybe it doesn't apply to me. i think over application of anything can be bad, carbs are just another one.

itsus said:

what about carbs in your tea though? the little boogers need something to eat don't they? i've never just poured molasses in the dirt, just in tea, so maybe it doesn't apply to me. i think over application of anything can be bad, carbs are just another one.

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I don't believe you read carefully enough. T'was mentioned.

to play devils advocate (i do use molasses but not very much - more for the cal/mag than the carbs)

presumably the other 75% of the carbs are feeding the plant and allowing it to grow? - is there any way that supplementing the carbs at the root zone could allow extra carbs for plant growth??

i find this interaction between plant and microbes interesting, but i find it hard to accept that it is the only way that organic ferts are converted into usable plant food. if you apply food to a bare sandy soil that food will be converted and leached within a year without the help of any plants, and by the same token i cant understand why this wouldnt go on in the confines of a pot - meaning that some plant available nutes can be leached/flushed from the pot

what say you

V.

VerdantGreen said:

to play devils advocate (i do use molasses but not very much - more for the cal/mag than the carbs)

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I question how much actully gets to the plant...

For Ca and Mg folair application of OMRI amino acids is the best option IMO. This prevent nutrient lockout in media and won't hurt the media bound microbes. Those microbes in the phyllosphere can be reapplied via ACT or AEM a few days after spraying with the amino acids.

presumably the other 75% of the carbs are feeding the plant and allowing it to grow? - is there any way that supplementing the carbs at the root zone could allow extra carbs for plant growth??

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I doubt it. And like I wrote, it will probably mess up the balance in the rhizosphere. I think many people are under the impression the added carbs are for the plant (eg. "sweet", etc), to make the buds smell good. But, that's just not the case (in my research, experiments and experience).

Another thing is the carbs we offer are most probably inferior to those from the plant, those the microbes have evolved to use...

i find this interaction between plant and microbes interesting, but i find it hard to accept that it is the only way that organic ferts are converted into usable plant food.

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It is. Via. "nutrient cycling", the "soil food web" and other mineral solublization processes (ex. AM fungi and soft rock phosphate). I have read vague references to plants which can possible excrete some type of enzyme which can mineralize some elements (like soft rock phosphate for example), but I have not seen any real data or studies, or even species of plants, just a side note here and there.

if you apply food to a bare sandy soil that food will be converted and leached within a year without the help of any plants, and by the same token i cant understand why this wouldnt go on in the confines of a pot - meaning that some plant available nutes can be leached/flushed from the pot

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I agree. I didn't say plants do the mineralizing, the microbes do that. But that plant communicates with the microbes in the process, and in nutrient cycling, etc.

"Bio-fertilizers", aka 'bio-available elements', aka 'inorganic elements', can be flushed away, especially ions like N and P, which is why I suggest adding zeolite to media. But, this flushing is much reduced with a strong microherd which as MM and I have noted, will 'lockup' (sequester) many elements within the soil food web, to be released during nutrient cycling. However, many glue like substances excreted by microbes (ex. bio-film, glomalin, etc) help 'hold' those elements in the from of media aggregates and other processes.

That's my take on it, does make sense to ya V? MM, would you care to comment? Do you see any flaws in my reasoning?

HTH

Verdant you are right about "trading" not being the only way nutrients are delivered.

Imagine though, if you will, the food soil web. Where one sees an intact line from organis
class to the next, imagine instead a dotted line. The plant can feed in the gap, but only as long as it is there. If the plant does not grab it, something else does.

a healthy soil outside does more than not leech nutrients. It actually absorbs and holds nutrients and grows, and the water that drips down is cleaner than it was at the surface.

By using molasses only occasionally for cal mag you are not falling under ganjas critical eye.

Edit: forgot about the other eye.

maryjohn said:

Verdant you are right about "trading" not being the only way nutrients are delivered.

Imagine though, if you will, the food soil web. Where one sees an intact line from organis
class to the next, imagine instead a dotted line. The plant can feed in the gap, but only as long as it is there. If the plant does not grab it, something else does.

a healthy soil outside does more than not leech nutrients. It actually absorbs and holds nutrients and grows, and the water that drips down is cleaner than it was at the surface.

By using molasses only occasionally for cal mag you are not falling under ganjas critical eye.

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Very well put

Edit: forgot about the other eye.

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Hummm, I think I get it.

Carbs like sugars can stimulate populations of microorganisms in "bulk" soil..
Bulk Soil

Then we have the Rhizosphere

In a large soil area or the areas where the plants roots are not as active adding mixes with carbs can be helpful in improving microbial actions.

I noticed the distinct terms of bulk soil and Rhizosphere the other day.

JackTheGrower said:

Carbs like sugars can stimulate populations of microorganisms in "bulk" soil..
Bulk Soil

Then we have the Rhizosphere

In a large soil area or the areas where the plants roots are not as active adding mixes with carbs can be helpful in improving microbial actions.

I noticed the distinct terms of bulk soil and Rhizosphere the other day.

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how much soil does it take to become "bulk"?

Ganja din, have you actually experimented yourself with molasses, agave nectar, sucanat and other forms of unprocessed sugar?

Try using those three I mentioned, especially in the latter half of flower then come back and tell us what you discovered.

I have been using all 3 for years and they work, especially in combination with mychorrizae. There is a bunch of good info out there on this topic, much of it from the real horticultural world where they don't go in for the kind of bilious speculations and guff that prevails in the ganja growing world.

@ Jack,

Carbs like sugars can stimulate populations of microorganisms in "bulk" soil.. Bulk Soil

Then we have the Rhizosphere

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Not to forget the phyllosphere, and intra-plant but I forget the term, mycosphere, etc, and even the zoosphere and endomycosphere (I believe). Lots of different 'areas' to consider...

However, nearly all areas (eg. 'spheres') can and do effect the other areas, including in the bulk media.

Microbes in the bulk media (ex. 'free' microbes like N fixing bacteria, fungi, etc) interact with microbes in the soil food web because they are part of the soil food web (SFW). The SFW does not exist only in the plants' rhizosphere, it 'happens' in bulk media, mycospheres, etc. As does nutrient cycling, though a lot of 'plant specific' nutrient cycling happens in the rhizosphere I believe(?).

Some organisms of the SFW within bulk media consume microbes from a plants rhizosphere, not all microbes stay in the rhizosphere, its a crazy world down there...

a large soil area or the areas where the plants roots are not as active adding mixes with carbs can be helpful in improving microbial actions.

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I agree, and my caveats above were occasional and light applications, along with fungal foods. IMO every so often is OK, not to concentrate tho, and with fungal foods is wise to help balance the potential bacterial explosion.

However, I believe my concerns are still valid considering bulk media areas.

I noticed the distinct terms of bulk soil and Rhizosphere the other day.

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Excellent! I'm stoked to see people getting 'dorky', its fun, no?



@ CC

Any media outside a 'sphere' (see above) can be considered 'bulk' media. And note that the rhizosphere, for example, is very thin.

HTH

Interesting thread, personally I'm a fan of simplicity, and less crap I can put in my soup the happier I am. I'll admit to being prone to try new things though.

A lot of what we work with is pure speculation though, but I think a brix meter/refractometer is what should guide your hand with regard to sugars and how they're applied. We can't tell how healthy the microherd is by looking, just by guessing and adding more, right?

It's also been established that mycorrhizae are unable to live in an environment where there is a concentration of more than 32ppm of P, which means for most of us, and most stages of growth, adding mycorrhizae is just a waste of money. In rooting/early veg (and in hydro) you might have under 32ppm P, but past that and it dies.

Who uses a brix meter and can do an honest side-by-side grow and report on the effects of molasses in flower?

Ganja din, have you actually experimented yourself with molasses, agave nectar, sucanat and other forms of unprocessed sugar?

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I have with molasses, see my brix info. And if molasses didn't have an effect I see no reason to assume the others will.

Try using those three I mentioned, especially in the latter half of flower then come back and tell us what you discovered.

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No thanks. Already done so with the most non-selective carb on the list, IMO the best candidate: unsuferated black strap molasses with 82% brix. IMO, one should source high brix molasses (over 80% brix), as that type offers very high levels of microbial bioactivity.

I have spent a few hours searching journal articles and volumes to find evidence to support the addition of carbs. You see, I too once applied carbs. And I found no evidence at all, past the caveats I already described. The simple fact is plants produce carbs as a main function from photosynthesis, thus why would they need us to apply carbs?...

But I keep an open mind, if you can find journal articles, or otherwise legit info showing otherwise I would be glad.

I have been using all 3 for years and they work, especially in combination with mychorrizae.

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What do you mean? Are you infering that AM fungi use carbs you add?

Also, about AM fungi: IMO and research, they are a waste with most organic growers who use even moderate amounts of ferts with P, especially liquids with higher % available P. Please see the thread "mycorrhizae with organics" for much more info.

There is a bunch of good info out there on this topic, much of it from the real horticultural world

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Not to my knowledge, well, legit sources that is. Can you please offer me some links or references?



@ lazyman,

I have done so already, with a digital brix meter (MUCH more accurate then manual). However, brix is complex and is affected by N, P, and other elements, amount of light (PPFD, or better yet YPF, QYF**), etc. So one can not directly correlate brix increase to carbs. One can use methods to eliminate considerations like elements, etc, but its complex. Brix is a good ballpark figure thou, all things considered.

I would prefer to read journal articles, other other legit info than doing brix testing!

** PPFD = Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density
** QYF = Quantum Yield Flux

** YPF = Yield Photon Flux

All would be modified to reflect cannabis action spectra. YPF, QYF is the MOST ideal, and all other quantifications for intense white light (eg. HID) other than PPFD, QYF and YPF are not worth a damn, IMO.

Thanks

Maybe indifferent is also right, in that he somehow falls under the caveat of "unhealthy plant". Which would explain both the observation and the cold hard reality of science.

I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing: occasionally applying em with molasses and fish juice.

Edit: just to be clear I am not raggin on indifferent. Stressing plants is important to good production. He must be right if he gets good results.

Well cool deal man, you've got your shit together!

So now I've scratched mycorrhizae off my list, and molasses/bud candy off my list, what else can I get rid of?

Quote:
if you apply food to a bare sandy soil that food will be converted and leached within a year without the help of any plants, and by the same token i cant understand why this wouldnt go on in the confines of a pot - meaning that some plant available nutes can be leached/flushed from the pot

I agree. I didn't say plants do the mineralizing, the microbes do that. But that plant communicates with the microbes in the process, and in nutrient cycling, etc.

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In this situation 'IMO' what the 'food' is has a lot of bearing on the outcome. You would get very different outcomes from; for example;
earth juice; a dead desert flower/plant; a chunk of wood; some stable compost; humus. Compost, humus, the chunk of wood may keep nutrients sequestered for years.

"Bio-fertilizers", aka 'bio-available elements', aka 'inorganic elements', can be flushed away, especially ions like N and P, which is why I suggest adding zeolite to media. But, this flushing is much reduced with a strong microherd which as MM and I have noted, will 'lockup' (sequester) many elements within the soil food web, to be released during nutrient cycling. However, many glue like substances excreted by microbes (ex. bio-film, glomalin, etc) help 'hold' those elements in the from of media aggregates and other processes.

That's my take on it, does make sense to ya V? MM, would you care to comment? Do you see any flaws in my reasoning?

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That is basically my take on it as well. It is not likely that there would be mineralization (microbial munching) taking place that another tier of microbes would not take advantage of and so on down or up the microbial heirarchy until the nutrients are eventually stored in someone's resting (dormant) or dead body. These can be in the form of cysts, spores or even dead dried hyphae or fruiting fungal bodies. Some of these cysts and spores can sequester their energy/life for hundreds of years. In our level of heirarchy these nutrients are in the form of seeds or fruits of plants or fungi which we as humans turn into food.

Anything from the hydro store that has significant design and graphics. If they can afford marketing they are ripping you off. Your own trash can make all the fertilizer you need, especially for mj.

You may find some products are worth it for convenience though. I try to get products that serve multiple purposes, like, um... Molasses. Rice bran, kelp meal, fish emulsion, and even blood meal can be used to brew em batches. What else can you do with "super bud blood" or "kola kick st3"?

On black strap molasses use, I cannot fathom how it is conceivable that this practice delivers sugar or sweetness to the flowers or fruit of a plant (at least not directly). It is very useful as a microbial food and I've used it and recommended its use in soil [especially if transiting to organic from chems] because it stimulates the growth of microbes which will help to eat up the residual salts [chems] and help set the foundation for laying down a healthy microbial population. AEM (EM fermentation) is good to follow up with in this situation as the phototrophic and lactobacillus bacteria will further clean up any toxins; after planting I use aerated compost tea (ACT) to further boost the healthy microbial population and ACT is different that AEM in that the consortia is (or should be) a functioning nutrient cycling microbial consortia which will actually kick start the feeding of plants if there are bacteria/archaea as well as flagellates and/or naked amoebae in the brew. Black strap (diluted) can be used also before or after applying ACT as a food source for the microbes but compost, vermicompost/cast, fish hydrolysate may be more suitable.

cosmiccowboy said:

how much soil does it take to become "bulk"?

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To me if it can heat up like compost it's a goodly volume to grow cannabis in.
I think the term bulk is meant as soil not directly involved with the rhizosphere.

So if we add materials in relationship to other materials to our soils we can use may things our "closed systems" soil food web.

That's where i feel I am at.. Hell I even used apple sauce this year.