FWD: The nitrogen cycle and indoor application

CT Guy said:

Tjmccoy,

Good post, but can you throw this up in the Organic Soil section under a new thread, and then I can leave some feedback there and we can get some others to comment as well.

Thanks!

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Lately I've been questioning my organic methods, not that I'm getting poor results but I'm thinking something might be missing.

First of all I use vics super soil mix, ingredients include...

Pro-mix hp w/ microrise
peace of mind bone meal
blood
kelp
dolomite lime
worm castings (been using worms way but I know there are better to be had)
plant sucess tablets
water in mollassas and liquid karma
ph down with vinegar
lightly moisten and let sit for 2 weeks

pretty much the original recipe except I adjust the blood bone kelp levels

I like this mix because of its slow release, non burning, non pest, seemingly endless supply of proper nutes, and ease of use.

I've played around in the past with hydro gh cem nutes back then, just perlite/worm/vermiclite, coco, earth juice products ( probably the worst thing I ever did) they screw with ph like crazy, any way keep running back to vics mix

I do like pureblend pro and pureblend orig however and had good results several grows back

Here is a basic nitrogen cycle chart


What I question is how long does it take for the bacteria and fungi to culture?

Is 2 weeks enough time to get these up to proper levels to be benificial?

Am I providing initialy enough oxygen to encourage areobic conditions for thriving bacteria?

Are anaerobic bacteria also nessesary?

These "nitrogen" cycle charts dont mention potasium and phospherous how does this fit into the picture?

Whats the difference as how the plant see's it/uses it between Amonia, nitrite, nitrate's?

Can peat moss be considered soil?

Would it be possible given the knowledge we have now to try and create a living soil excluding peat moss?

Would it be possible to create a living culture of bacteria and fungi, provide ideal conditions for their growth, then add to the mix

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Comming from an aquarium background the nitrogen cycle is evident and absolutly vital. From my experience with aquariums I can tell you that it takes anywhere from 6 to 8 weeks from starting fresh to get bacteria up to proper levels. The prosess is evident using simple test kits. When you start a tank marine or fresh first the amonia levels spike with a modest load( very toxic to fish), then amoniafying bacteria break down amonia into nitrite and nitrite levels spike (less toxic to fish than amonia), then nitrites get converted into nitrates( even less toxic but high levels induce long term negative effects to fish), which can only be removed with plants or phisical water changes.

in the past I've successfully maintained low nitrate levels using mangroves and scrubber algea, as nitrates are detrimental to a living reef

which is the basis for "guppy ponics"

Its now common practice to "seed" the tank with either substate from an established tank or in the case of a living reef "live rock"

Its also evident that you need an aerobic condition for all this to work properly in a tank as apossed to anaerobic condition.

It is said that plants can absorb amonia directly or nitrates, It would seem to me that nitrates would be more easily absorbed.

Any knowledge on how to specifically apply all this to the indoor garden?

I also posted this over on my thread in the dj short forum as most folks there are also highly involved in organics.

Link to F13xbm thread http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=2123276#post2123276

TJ,

I feel bad that I sent you over here and no one has responded. I think part of the problem is that you ask quite a few different questions in your post, it's a bit daunting to try and answer. I'll speak to a few things right now:

1. I think 2 weeks should be fine, the organisms would have plenty of time to establish themselves within that time frame.

2. Hard to know if their getting enough O2. Are you growing in the ground or containers? How much are you watering?

3. You can read through the thread on EM for some links about anaerobic bacteria, and also the thread on pH might be helpful.

Sorry I can't write more, I have to get back to work. You might find "Teaming with Microbes" to be a good resource. One thing I've noticed in this forum is people have a tendency to overdo it. Put the plant in charge, and let it regulate the microbes and nutrients in the soil. I don't think you need as many inputs, and may be overthinking the whole process just a bit.

I hope some other people will chime in too!

Cheers,
Tad

PS: Plants can absorb nitrates directly, but this is not their preferred form of nitrogen (depending on where the fall on the plant succession chart). Jeff's book would be extremely helpful in this regard.

What I question is how long does it take for the bacteria and fungi to culture?

Is 2 weeks enough time to get these up to proper levels to be benificial?

Click to expand...

2 weeks is more than enough to get things started. bacteria will multiply faster than fungi of course. why the emphasis on 2 weeks?

Am I providing initialy enough oxygen to encourage areobic conditions for thriving bacteria?

Click to expand...

do you have any aeration amendments in the soil such as perlite, sand, rice hulls etc....? does it drain fast or sit with water, like said how big containers, in ground or what?

Are anaerobic bacteria also nessesary?

Click to expand...

you have better chances with aerobic microbes, but not all anaerobics are bad.

hese "nitrogen" cycle charts dont mention potasium and phospherous how does this fit into the picture?

Click to expand...

well they are "nitrogen" cycle charts not K and P charts after all arent they lol.

Whats the difference as how the plant see's it/uses it between Amonia, nitrite, nitrate's?

Click to expand...

your getting into molecular levels there, do you really need to know? basically they are in forms the plant can not use/uptake.

Would it be possible given the knowledge we have now to try and create a living soil excluding peat moss?

Click to expand...

of course its possible, does the soil outside your house have peat moss in it? are the mountains made of peat moss? the coastlines?

Would it be possible to create a living culture of bacteria and fungi, provide ideal conditions for their growth, then add to the mix

Click to expand...

yes its called compost, or there are other methods to culture specific bacteria or fungi. most of them can be done by you.

hope that covers it for now. nothing too complex.

Quote:
What I question is how long does it take for the bacteria and fungi to culture?

Is 2 weeks enough time to get these up to proper levels to be benificial?
2 weeks is more than enough to get things started. bacteria will multiply faster than fungi of course. why the emphasis on 2 weeks?

OK great, 2 weeks is what the original recipe called for but I was trying to explain that in my knowledge with aquariums that it takes 6-8 weeks for the bacteria to establish


Quote:
Am I providing initialy enough oxygen to encourage areobic conditions for thriving bacteria?
do you have any aeration amendments in the soil such as perlite, sand, rice hulls etc....? does it drain fast or sit with water, like said how big containers, in ground or what?

I was speaking of when I brew up the mix then stick it a trash bag with out air, yeah I have perlite indoor containers, I didn't know if I should add an air stone and pump to the bag to create ideal conditions for aerobic bacteria


Quote:
Are anaerobic bacteria also nessesary?
you have better chances with aerobic microbes, but not all anaerobics are bad.

I see


Quote:
hese "nitrogen" cycle charts dont mention potasium and phospherous how does this fit into the picture?
well they are "nitrogen" cycle charts not K and P charts after all arent they lol.

Ok I know it sounds stupid but they all start with a pile of shit on the ground and make no mention of p and k I dont understand how that fit into the picture as you cant find p and k charts...


Quote:
Whats the difference as how the plant see's it/uses it between Amonia, nitrite, nitrate's?
your getting into molecular levels there, do you really need to know? basically they are in forms the plant can not use/uptake.

just trying to learn here buddy, the idea is if I get my bacteria in the mix up to proper levels before transplant if the plants could use the food easier as nitrates and if that would be better


Quote:
Would it be possible given the knowledge we have now to try and create a living soil excluding peat moss?
of course its possible, does the soil outside your house have peat moss in it? are the mountains made of peat moss? the coastlines?

so your saying I could take a pile of dirt from outside dump it in my closet grow plants in it and just till it up and plant again like outside? I know you cant. but why and are the reasons able to be overcome now days

I would like to work twards a more natural approach. DJS speaks of sativa coaxing with enviromental infleunces like light distance/angle soil depth and composition

They say for instance the hawian strains when brought indoors are nothing like the ones grown there. Would it be possible to recreate such an enviroment now days that would/could grow hawain like hawai for instance indoors

We talk alot about HOG ( highland oaxican gold) in djs forum and the enviroment is coastal volcanic, I was trying to think how I might recreate such a thing indoor


Quote:
Would it be possible to create a living culture of bacteria and fungi, provide ideal conditions for their growth, then add to the mix
yes its called compost, or there are other methods to culture specific bacteria or fungi. most of them can be done by you.

I was thinking if it would be benificial to mix all my main indredients in a high concentration blood bone kelp worm a little promix) and just keep it going, areate it and such to encourage bacteria, but then I think that might be a bad idea given that it would stink to high hell and people might think I'm like Gacy and have dead people in my basement

hope that covers it for now. nothing too complex.

I'm was just trying to be forward thinking. 10 years ago nearly no one was using mycorrhizae, now its everywhere, 10 years from now what will be the next break through, then could I recreate a natural enviroment indoors for hawaiin effects

some people want to take everything they read as truths and never question why or is there a better way theres all kinds of old myths being busted on these forums,

Like sensi is more potent than seeded bud - not true IMO
that you need cloneing gel to clone mj - not true - wish I had $100 plus back that I spent on the shit
that you can't take a clone from a flowering plant - not true - I do it all the time

theres many many more

DJS is a smart fellow and speaks of changing soil comosition and depths to bring out different infleuences but doesnt provide much detail about it.

I was trying to research how I might create an oaxacan enviroment indoors and was trying to understand the basic sience first and the reason for asking these prosumed "dumb questions"

I was speaking of when I brew up the mix then stick it a trash bag with out air, yeah I have perlite indoor containers, I didn't know if I should add an air stone and pump to the bag to create ideal conditions for aerobic bacteria

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ok sorry but im a bit confused here. when you say brew i think of a tea or liquid of some sort, or are you talking soil?

Ok I know it sounds stupid but they all start with a pile of shit on the ground and make no mention of p and k I dont understand how that fit into the picture as you cant find p and k charts...

Click to expand...

i cant say there is P and K charts but there is a lot of documentation on P and K in the soil. if you give me a few days i can give you some links to read.

just trying to learn here buddy, the idea is if I get my bacteria in the mix up to proper levels before transplant if the plants could use the food easier as nitrates and if that would be better

Click to expand...

yes of course, nothing wrong with learning. its just getting into the molecular levels only complicates things most of the time. if you have the microbes and you have the nutrients basically the plant will find its way.

so your saying I could take a pile of dirt from outside dump it in my closet grow plants in it and just till it up and plant again like outside? I know you cant. but why and are the reasons able to be overcome now days

Click to expand...

in some situations you could, depending on how fertile your soil is to start with. eventually you will have to amend it with organic matter and some nutrients as the plant is taking them out to grow buds, and you smoke the buds. but yes its totally possible to take dirt from outside, amend it and grow great pot with it. hell i do it. paying for soil is stupid.

I was thinking if it would be benificial to mix all my main indredients in a high concentration blood bone kelp worm a little promix) and just keep it going, areate it and such to encourage bacteria, but then I think that might be a bad idea given that it would stink to high hell and people might think I'm like Gacy and have dead people in my basement

Click to expand...

honestly it would be best to try and mix things in the ratios perfect for the plant. mycorrhizae fungi for instance, too high levels of some nutrients will inhibit growth. really you should be trying to build your soil fertility over time rather than instantly put it there

g2g now will try to answer the rest later and give better explanations.

the phosphorus cycle is pretty much the same as the nitrogen cycle, except the mycorhizal fungi help out more here than the bacteria.
Definetly check out the book "Teaming with Microbes" it breaks this down.
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/dc6795.html
this link should help it explains the phosphorus cycle pretty well.