Male clones transformed to Female to judge male smoking quality

DocLeaf · Dec 14, 2009

This is slightly unrelated but not,,,

Years back we watched a Kenyan male (from a Mombasa land race, seeds collected by the grower) produce x2 female sepals at the top of a plant in their garden. Otherwise the plant was clean of hermaphrodites or abnormal flowers,, aka otherwise male.
A few weeks later the sepals set to seed. We recovered the seeds from the growers after harvest ,, and gave the x2 seeds to another grower to grow,, but he's now a bag-head and we haven't discussed the matter since (mainly cause I n I nah down with bag-heads).

We have never seen a male plant give seeds before or since... :canabis:

Peace dLeaf :joint:

nvisionary · Dec 14, 2009

This is what male cannabis flowers look like when reversed. (American Bastard Cannabis plant in pic)

I made seeds and have not germinated any yet. This was done outdoors, the reversal delayed self pollination, and so the seeds did not all fully develop.

Since Sam didnt get great seeds either, could it be a natural inhibition to selfing male plants, or why did Sam not get real mature seeds?

GreenintheThumb · Dec 14, 2009

Sam did you by chance take some pictures of the whole plant? I kinda wanted to see the damage the reversal caused and it's just cool to see a half male half female plant. Thanks.

Hope those bongs of herbal cannabis didn't ruin your day

It's funny how you consider that work when most would consider it a very pleasurable day. Sigh, I can only imagine your resin collection.

Sam_Skunkman · Dec 14, 2009

I will have to look I did not post the whole plant with all the leaf damage from the treatments because it looked ugly as hell. If I did it again I would do it as early as I can in the growing season, I would not spray any of the leaves just the sexual parts or where they will be. I would also spray once a week for at least 5 weeks maybe more for late flowering varieties. And I would use pollen from a different variety male to make the seeds instead of selfing with the same plant. But as I have said I am not sure if there is any reason to do this, other then I can. As for using the technique for judging the males contribution to a cross, this works easy, although, the flowers produced were wimpy, they were well frosted and the smells were all there, as well as type of high and strength. I hope people use this to help breed better plants and to help people reach their goals all that much faster. I also hope that people have male plants in the future to transform to female, males seem to be an albatross to most growers today, useless. What a shame I say.
-SamS

GreenintheThumb · Dec 14, 2009

Well, I guess males are a bit of an albatross, certainly to growers and likely to breeders as well. In your opinion what is of value in males? I really don't see them doing much besides confusing the phenotypic selection that most "breeders" use. IMO- maybe an argument could be made to their value in keeping our pool slightly more wide simply due to selection error. I don't think that's a good enough reason to keep them all around or value them as special. Having said that, without doubt the reversal of a male is a powerful tool and hopeful it will help others make better selections. Good thread you have here Sam. Let us know what happens next season when you play with the YYs.

*mistress* · Dec 15, 2009

GreenintheThumb said:
Well, I guess males are a bit of an albatross, certainly to growers and likely to breeders as well. In your opinion what is of value in males? I really don't see them doing much besides confusing the phenotypic selection that most "breeders" use. IMO- maybe an argument could be made to their value in keeping our pool slightly more wide simply due to selection error. I don't think that's a good enough reason to keep them all around or value them as special.

from:
Purple Pakistani
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2936819&postcount=575... forward...

*mistress* said:
any pics of the male used in the sandstorm cross?
any color in the male side?

that moroccan male has to be very short & slow vegger...

all info on the sandstorm will be greatly appreciated...

charlie garcia said:
Sandstorm is inbred line, not an F1 so doesnt use pure moms or dads but F5-F6 basically

Morrocan was very difficult to work, stretchy and columnar lines, thin stems, and not much health. Despite this, added so much richness to the mix, in flavours, aromas even colours helping to show different faces. People liked it this way at the beginning and we have never changed that concept. There can be still some bit stretchy phenos but I repeat, breeding strategy allowed different expressions for better and deeper richness of hybrid.

pics of male in the orginal thread...

the moroc may be finicky, but the rich earth, h*shy aromatics :yes:

... especially for p1's...
seems to depend on goals of the hobbyist/gardener/breeder/afficianado... some aromatics of males seem aspect of their distinction from female side of line... :2cents:

enjoy your garden!

Quick · Dec 15, 2009

Ever heard of a strain that couldn't be reversed from female to male via STS Sam?

GreenintheThumb · Dec 15, 2009

The answer is no quick. Tweak the potency of your spray or tweak the duration/frequency of it.

Mistress-
I'm not saying there are no valuable males out there. Jesus, that would be a ridiculous assumption. I'm only saying that it's not their "maleness" that makes them valuable it's all the other traits that are passed to the progeny. And IMO it's a hell of a lot easier to find a good mom than a good dad.

Sam_Skunkman · Dec 16, 2009

Yes I have found a few individuals that do not respond, but even more that are functionally sterile, they will not drop pollen. Maybe a different regime of STS would work. I can't say. Nothing I did could make them transform to male, but just a few.
-SamS

Londinium · Dec 16, 2009

Sam_Skunkman said:
This method can be used both for judging what smells and tastes are passed on by males as well as the type of high and strength.
-SamS

Very interesting,I for one am glad Someone is in a position to do this work...and then bothers to share it with those of us with less facilities and knowledge,Ta very much Sadu.... :respect:

I really see this as being more/most useful to breeder's with space,funding and therefore some progeny testing limitations(me!),than it is to yourself,being in the position you are in(I'm sure space for prog tests isn't one of your current prob's). Although I don't like cutting corners in my work it can take me a very long time to finish a project and tools for speeding it up are something I can't afford to ignore til space is less of an issue for me and I never really got enough to tell from smoking males ever either.
So all in all it seems pretty SELFLESS of u(sorry couldn't resist it). :hide:

Luck'n'Light JBo

titoon29 · Dec 16, 2009

hey sam and others !

nice experiment !

sam did you ever thought of using vaporising for male selection ? that should work with small samples, involving less hassle ? what do you think ?

thanks for sharing mate !

Sam_Skunkman · Dec 16, 2009

I do not like or use vaporizers to get high, they can be great tools for research.
To me a vaporizer takes what could be smoked in one hit in a bong, and divide's it into a few balloons that take 10 breaths to finish. I want it in one hit.
Also if you think an untransformed male can be judged, I don't. After turning to female it is easy, smells, the type of high , strength, and turning to female is super easy.
But different strokes for different folks.
-SamS

-SamS

RollmeoneKenobi · Dec 16, 2009

Londinium said:
Very interesting,I for one am glad Someone is in a position to do this work...and then bothers to share it with those of us with less facilities and knowledge,Ta very much Sadu....
I really see this as being more/most useful to breeder's with space,funding and therefore some progeny testing limitations(me!),than it is to yourself,being in the position you are in(I'm sure space for prog tests isn't one of your current prob's). Although I don't like cutting corners in my work it can take me a very long time to finish a project and tools for speeding it up are something I can't afford to ignore til space is less of an issue for me and I never really got enough to tell from smoking males ever either.
So all in all it seems pretty SELFLESS of u(sorry couldn't resist it). Luck'n'Light JBo

If you going to say it; say it with smilies I say hehe. Londinium pretty much said what I'm feeling. Thanks Sam for all that you have given the community :bow:

. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays :kissass:

.

DocLeaf · Dec 16, 2009

titoon29 said:
sam did you ever thought of using vaporising for male selection ?

Very good question :yes:

titoon29 · Dec 16, 2009

Hey sam,

for your reply and :thanks:

docleaf too !

Well sam i totally understand why you prefer smoking, the more i use the volcano, the more i find it very pleasant for getting a bit high, but getting really high has to be done smoking. and of course it takes time vaporising.

Talking about males and selection, i m pretty sure there are great advantages for a vaporizer, for small/middle growers like me, who can t afford such extraction/transformation on males, and such time and space used.

I tried to vaporize males, fresh, and i can tell you even when they start flowering, they do have some buzz.
but i m sure if i had males ongoing in flowering, more resin would have popped up. and i could have an overview on the smell, taste, and effect range.
as vaporizer vaporize mostly resin, they do have some so it should be exactly the same as vaporizing females.
also i found out that using leaf material in the vaporizer doesn t make much difference with buds.

Vaporizer could also be a very interesting tools for isolating terpens and cannabinoids profile, i have to work on that using cannabinoids and terpens boiling temperature tables. and get some guinea pigs as my tolerance is just usually to high for that kind of experiments^^

it is very convenient to be able to use fresh male material to try, even a female.

i ll be in nepal in 6 months, and i m very happy with my portable iolite vaporizer which should help me to track special individuals without having to dry them.

but of course, i agree that if you have time, space, your method is the best way!

I hope it ll convinve some people to try out, i won t be able to do some breeding for a while with my long trip in nepal...

+++ IC mates !

Sam_Skunkman · Dec 16, 2009

titoon29 said:
Hey sam, for your reply and docleaf too !

Well sam i totally understand why you prefer smoking, the more i use the volcano, the more i find it very pleasant for getting a bit high, but getting really high has to be done smoking. and of course it takes time vaporising.

Talking about males and selection, i m pretty sure there are great advantages for a vaporizer, for small/middle growers like me, who can t afford such extraction/transformation on males, and such time and space used.

I tried to vaporize males, fresh, and i can tell you even when they start flowering, they do have some buzz.
but i m sure if i had males ongoing in flowering, more resin would have popped up. and i could have an overview on the smell, taste, and effect range.
as vaporizer vaporize mostly resin, they do have some so it should be exactly the same as vaporizing females.
also i found out that using leaf material in the vaporizer doesn t make much difference with buds.

Vaporizer could also be a very interesting tools for isolating terpens and cannabinoids profile, i have to work on that using cannabinoids and terpens boiling temperature tables. and get some guinea pigs as my tolerance is just usually to high for that kind of experiments^^

it is very convenient to be able to use fresh male material to try, even a female.

i ll be in nepal in 6 months, and i m very happy with my portable iolite vaporizer which should help me to track special individuals without having to dry them.

but of course, i agree that if you have time, space, your method is the best way!

I hope it ll convinve some people to try out, i won t be able to do some breeding for a while with my long trip in nepal...

+++ IC mates !

I don't think I could judge the buzz from vaporizing males, and am sure I don't want to try. You could use my method traveling if you have 5-6 weeks to spend at the correct time of flowering where ever you are.
-SamS

GreenintheThumb · Dec 16, 2009

Sam_Skunkman said:
Yes I have found a few individuals that do not respond, but even more that are functionally sterile, they will not drop pollen. Maybe a different regime of STS would work. I can't say. Nothing I did could make them transform to male, but just a few.
-SamS

Really? That's pretty strange. Have you bred with these moms over the years? Are they the mothers of any of your lines? Do these individuals have intersex repression traits? Have you tried crossing them to moderately intersexed lines to see if they block the traits? Or do you think they're maybe too inbred to reverse? Are these individuals like S4-S6s or are they some regular moms you have? Sorry to push so many more questions on you but your the first credible person i've heard who had many irreversible ladies. Thanks.

titoon29 · Dec 16, 2009

I don't think I could judge the buzz from vaporizing males, and am sure I don't want to try. You could use my method traveling if you have 5-6 weeks to spend at the correct time of flowering where ever you are.
-SamS

thanks for your help ! of course i wasn t trying to convince you to switch to the vaporizer method, but i m pretty sure some people could find it interesting.!

i know it is possible to judge the buzz of a male with vaporizing, as i did it a few times, but never did any pollination with them. Of course you need a low tolerance if you have few plant material, and you need to be used to vaporizing because effects are different from smoking.

the problem is i never had 5 to 6 weeks at the same place, when on a ganja trip, to be able to select the herb i m gonna pick up the seeds on (i m talking about seeded females).. and that ll be same for nepal i m sure. i ll probably find some lonely plants during my trekking, and won t be able to come back... so few fresh material in the vaporizer, i can judge the potency, at least a bit. i can also judge smell, resin production, vigor, so it s quite usefull.. the problem will be i won t know the male the pollination comes from, but it should be solved collecting a lot of seeds. it s at least better than random collecting without potency check. i m just planning to collect not start breeding there...

also i m a bit suprised you didn t do more experiments with vaporizing, it could be really usefull in establishing a terpens/cannabinoid profile using different vaporization temperatures...
but of course if you have access to gas chromatography, i could understand you have no need for that... it s just too expensive for most people...

thanks for all the knowledge here sam, always nice to have an expert to talk with ! keep up with sharing all your experiments !

Sam_Skunkman · Dec 17, 2009

titoon29 said:
i know it is possible to judge the buzz of a male with vaporizing, as i did it a few times, but never did any pollination with them. Of course you need a low tolerance if you have few plant material, and you need to be used to vaporizing because effects are different from smoking.

the problem is i never had 5 to 6 weeks at the same place, when on a ganja trip, to be able to select the herb i m gonna pick up the seeds on (i m talking about seeded females).. and that ll be same for nepal i m sure. i ll probably find some lonely plants during my trekking, and won t be able to come back... so few fresh material in the vaporizer, i can judge the potency, at least a bit. i can also judge smell, resin production, vigor, so it s quite usefull.. the problem will be i won t know the male the pollination comes from, but it should be solved collecting a lot of seeds. it s at least better than random collecting without potency check. i m just planning to collect not start breeding there...

also i m a bit suprised you didn t do more experiments with vaporizing, it could be really usefull in establishing a terpens/cannabinoid profile using different vaporization temperatures...
but of course if you have access to gas chromatography, i could understand you have no need for that... it s just too expensive for most people...
!

Sure, me with a low tolerance...

I would never use a vaporizer to try and determine the terpenoid content or percentages as there is no way to confirm other then subjective.
With a GC you know exactly what terpenoids/cannabinoids are present and in what amounts.
But to be honest most western bred Cannabis is just THC, with very very small amounts of maybe CBD, less then .1, and terpenoids to be understood they need to be vaporized with .20 mg 100% pure THC, then the real effects become clear.
I understand you want to do maybe this but really a vaporizer will not answer the questions. But you can try it on the road and see if it helps.
What does work is to stay around long enough at a place you find Cannabis being cultivated, to see how they do it, see the plants when finished, and try the finished dried & cured bud. Then you don't need a vaporizer, unless for males, but unless you are around at pollination time I am not sure you can guarantee that any seeds were in fact pollinated by any specific male, more likely many many males.
I understand you are trying to work with what you have, but maybe it is beyond a simple Vaporizer to do what you need.
BTW I have used my volcano for hundreds if not thousand of experiments, but I have 100% pure cannabinoid standards as well as terpenoid standards, and I am not trying to determine content of Cannabis I am using them with a vaporizer to gain an understanding of each compound cannabinoid or terpenoid that is found in Cannabis. For this the vaporizer is very useful.
-SamS

DocLeaf · Dec 17, 2009

Hi Sam

We meant,, have you ever used a vapouriser to judge the males you've reversed into female ,, not normal standard male plants. No-one in their right mind smokes males these days... lol

Sam_Skunkman said:
I would never use a vaporizer to try and determine the terpenoid content or percentages as there is no way to confirm other then subjective.

Don't different cannabinoids vaporize at different temps? They did the last time we tried it man. For example,, samples with a higher % of THC gave a better hit at 160c , than those with a higher % of CB which after re-heating are released at 180c. The THCV dropped in anyplace below -220c. That's what we found anyhow,,, :canabis:

Sam_Skunkman said:
BTW I have used my volcano for hundreds if not thousand of experiments, but I have 100% pure cannabinoid standards as well as terpenoid standards, and I am not trying to determine content of Cannabis I am using them with a vaporizer to gain an understanding of each compound cannabinoid or terpenoid that is found in Cannabis. For this the vaporizer is very useful.
-SamS

Ah ok,, this makes perfect sense :yes:

Interesting stuff,, good to see you are still pushing the boundaries out :canabis:

peace out

Male clones transformed to Female to judge male smoking quality

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