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The growing large plants, outdoors, thread...

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milkyjoe

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Soft Rock is more than P...yes it is 20% total P but only 3% soluble...you need fungus to break down the rest. But it does not complex with Ca, or the million other cations it can complex with, Fe, Al, etc, etc.

It is also 20% Ca, some Si and micros.

It can be used as a foliar or drench...although more effective if you get the micronized version.

I use it instead of bone meal...you miss a little animal protein but those are not hard to replace. But you get things bone meal will never bring.

Mind you others feel differently...so you gotta take what I say for what it is worth to you.

All P is questionable in cold soil or if your pH is above 6.5. In those cases...and now I am gonna piss people off...I use ammonium phosphate. Not organic, but a super effective starter fert.

Then again...that organic cert is nothing but something govt and corporations negotiate...and I don't give one fuck about either of those organizations...I see them both as the problem, not the solution.

So if I am starting in May...a little AP bump. If I start in June...nothing but soft rock. The trick is to use enough for the P bump but not so much to kill any microbes. But it do get you up and running in a hurry.
 
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Cep

As long as your excess N isn't leaching into the system. I doubt that it is. What concentrations would you use it in for a young transplant?

I used rock phosphate this year, fish bone meal last year. Total P levels in my top 12" are above 120ppm but I doubt that much of it is plant available at this point.
 
FatherEarth

FatherEarth

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Cep, was your pre season soil test high in K?

Its hard to grasp until youve seen it with your own two. Ive seen plants with no sun for 3 days, 90-100% humidity very little air circulation be mold free. There were dead leaves on the soil surface shooting mycelium into the air the RH was so high and could not find a spot of mold anywhere on the plants. In the areas around them mold was everywhere....

I think you can have all your P in the soil if your cec was high high enough and your sources of P are varied likewise with the breakdown times.
cal phos, fish bone meal, bone meal, and a dash of P in a few other amendments as well, and I have yet to see anything lack in P...

You wont kill microbes with soft rock in fact they use it for fuel much like plants do. I think the kind of P that kills microbes are ones that are immediately available and are of the conventional ag variety. Here is a good paper to read
Soil bacteria and phosphates

Covers what we are talking about and a whole lot more...
 
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Cep

Beginning of season K was at 6%, latest results were at 4%. P is probably low because the soil isn't as active as I would like and I'm sure it has gotten much colder in the past month.

I've had some plants in the past that seemed mold proof. NYCD was one of them, the plant seemed to be able to grow in a sauna. What I have noticed is that the first calyx to form on the plant, maybe its a bract because often there isn't a pistil, is the first to mold. This calyx will form at each node and if you pull the larger buds back at full maturity you can see that they also die first.
 
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milkyjoe

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Cep...would you mind sharing your Ca saturation from the beginning of the season.

Even at 4% you should still have plenty...although it does seem like there is a pretty good drawdown.

P availability is all about pH. Even though very little is soluble in the soil as long as you don't have it tied up with Ca, Fe, Al, etc the root exudes enough acid to solublize what is in that immediate area.

I like to use it as a drench just to make sure that little bit is right around the root.
 
C

Cep

I think the first test I took of the plot show K at 6%, Mg 10%, Ca 76%, H 6% (don't have my notes with exact #'s but my memory is really close)

Now the results are showing K 3-4%, Mg 5-8%, Ca 65-71%, H 17-21%. There was a test with Ca at 51 and H at 38 but I think that was an outlier. I've purchased a soil corer since and plan on taking better representative samples. I think I have plenty of K based on the results of the petiole tests.

The soil was in the high 5's which isn't ideal but I'm convinced my issues have more to due with my unamended soil below. Native soil in the field was 5.5 with very little P. I think the roots have sunk into something like that. Last sap readings were 6.5-6.7. There really aren't that many bugs in the plot. I haven't seen a single cat in 20 days and only a small colony of mites. Maybe the small sucking insects are enough to open the way for the mold.

I'm trying not to get to disappointed. This season is still a big improvement on the prior.
 
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milkyjoe

Senior Member
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The fact that H went up that much says you are just flat using up cations of all kinds. Your soil did not have enough cec and humus to feed the plant the entire grow.

Do you remember the tcec? How much you amended the soil?

Bigger soil more highly amended should fix your problems next yr.

Also looking at the first test there is not much room for micros. Do you remember ppms for B, Fe, Mn, Zn and Cu? On top of that there is some ultra trace stuff that serves as co factors for enzymes. These are incredibly important to the health of your plant.

http://bionutrient.org/audio/2013_s...he-Challenges-in-Farming-Today-John-Kempf.pdf

If you cannot go bigger on the soil you might want to consider a more aggressive foliar routine and weekly nute drenches. Replace what is being used up in your soil.

And of course...pick genetics that work in your environment.
 
C

Cep

Agreed. I assumed the increasing H was from root exudates and it seems like that is the case as it kept increasing with the size of the plants. The cec was 20-24 after amending. I was worried about overdoing it. B and Cu are half of what is recommended. Rock dust isn't expensive and will def be incorporated next year.

Kempf's talks are very useful. Hopefully many people can learn from that style of agriculture.

I've never had plants this big. I feel like they grew out of my control really.

Someone on here spoke of their cherry pie doing well with mold. Need to find the real deal.
 
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milkyjoe

Senior Member
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Cep said:
Agreed. I assumed the increasing H was from root exudates and it seems like that is the case as it kept increasing with the size of the plants. The cec was 20-24 after amending. I was worried about overdoing it. B and Cu are half of what is recommended. Rock dust isn't expensive and will def be incorporated next year.

Kempf's talks are very useful. Hopefully many people can learn from that style of agriculture.

I've never had plants this big. I feel like they grew out of my control really.

Someone on here spoke of their cherry pie doing well with mold. Need to find the real deal.
Click to expand...

If you look at what Kempf and his buddies are actually doing they: a) balance their soils in the fall, b) load it with "fertilizer" in the spring which is intended for the upcoming crop c) put food in the transplant hole, d) use both foliars and drenches on approximately a weekly basis.

It looks to me like they are trying to maintain mineral balance throughout the entire season. The difference with them is using available but non soluble nutrients in micronized form...so they have to be processed by microbes before becoming plant available. They avoid water soluble nutrients because those bring water into the plant with them and dilute your brix...brix is dissolved solids...mo water = less solids.

What they are doing is trying to keep the plant healthy the entire season. So where you are running low on minerals they are trying to replace them as they are being used.

The advantage is what you are seeing right now. With a lack of base cations you are seeing an increase in H. That eventually transfers to the plant, dropping sap pH. When that pH drops much below 6.4 (Tainio) you become more and more susceptible to mold.

By maintaining enough minerals to load the cec sites you prevent this scenario you should maintain the same resistance to mold you had when it was growing out of control in veg.

Of course the bigger, denser the buds become the more important all this becomes. And weather will influence the photosynthetic ability of the plant also.

Anyways...good luck with the rest of the yr.
 
yoss33

yoss33

Well-known member
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:) the tree
picture.php
 
ThaiBliss

ThaiBliss

Well-known member
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yoss33 said:
:) the tree
View Image
Click to expand...

Holy Crap Yoss33! Is that your Zamaldelica? What a great picture. I think your photography skill and artful eye matches your growing skills. Now that I have seen it, I can't believe I have not seen this perspective from other posters.

Well Done,

ThaiBliss
 
yoss33

yoss33

Well-known member
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Thanks for the compliment, man :) I love that photo too. My photo skill is simply to take many photos and then select the best few to publish ;)
The Z#4 is definitely an interesting plant, and as the rest of Zamaldelicas it has very robust branches strongly attached to the main stem. Good for trees.
 
C

Cep

milkyjoe said:
If you look at what Kempf and his buddies are actually doing they: a) balance their soils in the fall, b) load it with "fertilizer" in the spring which is intended for the upcoming crop c) put food in the transplant hole, d) use both foliars and drenches on approximately a weekly basis.

It looks to me like they are trying to maintain mineral balance throughout the entire season. The difference with them is using available but non soluble nutrients in micronized form...so they have to be processed by microbes before becoming plant available. They avoid water soluble nutrients because those bring water into the plant with them and dilute your brix...brix is dissolved solids...mo water = less solids.

What they are doing is trying to keep the plant healthy the entire season. So where you are running low on minerals they are trying to replace them as they are being used.

The advantage is what you are seeing right now. With a lack of base cations you are seeing an increase in H. That eventually transfers to the plant, dropping sap pH. When that pH drops much below 6.4 (Tainio) you become more and more susceptible to mold.

By maintaining enough minerals to load the cec sites you prevent this scenario you should maintain the same resistance to mold you had when it was growing out of control in veg.

Of course the bigger, denser the buds become the more important all this becomes. And weather will influence the photosynthetic ability of the plant also.

Anyways...good luck with the rest of the yr.
Click to expand...

Appreciate the discussion man. I'm looking to have more manageable plants next year. I work alone up here and as a consequence my foliar activity was pretty weak this year given plant size and nute requirements. Swift harvest to you and can't wait to see finished pics of that pp.

Zdub7k said:
what do some of you experienced super soiler's add in the fall after the harvest to start amending for the next season? Im thinkin I want to add a few things that take longer to break down and become available in the fall, then pour a few doses of ACT and let em sit over the winter...

So I plan to add kelp meal, EWC, mocha bat guano, fish bone meal, SRP, bloodmeal, and then maybe some alfalfa and lime this fall after everything is pulled. Is there any reason I shouldnt add any of these in the fall? in the spring I will add rock dust,guano, and mycos on transplant, along with a handful of EWC.
Click to expand...

Kelp and alfalfa are great but I would use them closer to the growing season to get the benefits of the hormones. I'm guessing the triacontanol and other hormones don't have an extended life in the soil maybe someone could set me straight?

Zdub7k said:
also, I have a nice wheat grass field in my pots at the base of every plant, along with the layer of mulch (wheat straw). Should I remove this at the end of the year or till it it? I pulled it out last year as I was moving locations and wasnt reusing the soil, but this year is dif....im in a perm spot and want to get a head start on next year...especially the calcium cec....what could I do this fall to help get that calcium cec up for next year...i dont want to deal with mold of bugs ever again!!
Click to expand...

I would leave it or till it in. It'll up the organic matter of the soil. Calcium amendments and things like rock phosphate can be added right after harvest. You shouldn't lose any of the calcium come next year and definitely won't lose the phosphate.
 
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