Foliar feeding in flowering

SilverSurfer_OG · Apr 14, 2009

Wow thats a very concise answer purple mate!

Now do you put h202 in your water? How many times during veg and flower? How much? Why kill the microbes that are feeding your plants in an organic setup? I use coco and the plants generally dry out quite fast... i love h202 as a mouth rinse and ear cleaner but not in my hempy buckets... yet!

I do like the idea of h202 in a foliar but. :chin:

Cheers!

purpledomgoddes · Apr 14, 2009

SilverSurfer_OG said:
Wow thats a very concise answer purple mate!

Now do you put h202 in your water? How many times during veg and flower? How much? Why kill the microbes that are feeding your plants in an organic setup? I use coco and the plants generally dry out quite fast... i love h202 as a mouth rinse and ear cleaner but not in my hempy buckets... yet!

I do like the idea of h202 in a foliar but.

Cheers!

h202 is applied as a foliar rinse/oxygenator ~weekly, along w/ ^stated
regime. whatever goes into buckets goes onto leaves @ ph 6.8.

h202 is applied to root zone from a separate container. ph of h202 water usually goes up to 6.5-6.8. trying to lower to 5.8-6.2 will require good dose of choice of ph down, if desired. usually just add couple drops of vinegar and pour in. applied weekly to root zone as mini-flush.

also use pro-tekt (sp?) as foliar. silica has in water will raise ph considerably. couple drops in sprayer and ph goes to 6.7-6.8 easily. only do this couple times during season as it is fairly strong.

used w/ coco too, w/ lava rock mixed in. hybrid hempy/krusty type bucket. just filled old krusty buckets (w/ couple dozen holes drilled out) w/ black gold coco blend+lava from kbs system, placed in 2d non-drilled bucket w/ spacer between.

can either be used as 'air pot', due to the many holes in bucket that roots will poke out of and pruned by hand/air (naturally) - or a krusy bucket in which the bottom bucket is aerated and roots grow in to. usually cut off very tip of roots anyway to promote lateral growth.

feeding includes myco via tabs ground/smashed up. they dont dissolve; so just push down into media w/ finger. objective is to have rotating cycle of beneficials added weekly, then killed weekly. whatever benefcials/non-beneficials survive after myco/h202 are strongest.

so, myco/beneficials @ beginning of week, h202 @ end. repeat cycle starting next day or so. lava rock has pores/crevices that bene/non-bene thrives in. they work out (or war out) which will prevail; they only have week to figure it out though.

when poured onto cut/scrape, hydrogen peroxide oxidizes that which is infecting cut. the bubbling is oxygen being released from valence shell of molecule and attaching to organic molecules. as w/ cut, wont pour onto cut all day, but then use lotion to moisturize cut, then, if infection contiunes, apply again next day or so. cut needs to breathe.
in buckets, breathing/lotion is the myco/humic acid/molasses - then clean the table and start over.

http://educate-yourself.org/cance/benefitsofhydrogenperozide17jul03.shtml

just a cursory net search will uncover articles like this, paraphrased below:[SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE] The Many Benefits of Hydrogen Peroxide
By Dr. David G. Williams
Helps Plants
It is this hydrogen peroxide in rainwater that makes it so much more effective than tap water when given to plants. With the increased levels of atmospheric pollution, however, greater amounts of H202 react with air-borne toxins and never reach the ground. To compensate for this, many farmers have been increasing crop yields by spraying them with diluted hydrogen peroxide (5 to 16 ounces of 35% mixed with 20 gallons of water per acre). You can achieve the same beneficial effect with your house plants by adding 1 ounce of 3% hydrogen peroxide (or 16 drops of 35% solution) to every quart of water you give your plants. (It can also be made into an excellent safe insecticide. Simply spray your plants with 8 ounces of 3% peroxide mixed with 8 ounces of white sugar and one gallon of water.)

Hydrogen peroxide is odorless and colorless, but not tasteless. When stored under the proper conditions, it is a very stable compound. When kept in the absence of light and contaminants, it dismutates (breaks down) very slowly at the rate of about 10% a year. (This can be slowed even further by storing the liquid in the freezer.) It boils at 152 degrees C and freezes at minus 2 degrees C.

When exposed to other compounds hydrogen peroxide dismutates readily. The extra oxygen atom is released leaving H20 (water). In nature oxygen (02) consists of two atoms--a very stable combination. A single atom of oxygen, however, is very reactive and is referred to as a free radical. Over the past several years, we've continually read that these free radicals are responsible for all types of ailments and even premature aging. What many writers seem to forget, however, is that our bodies create and use free radicals to destroy harmful bacteria, viruses, and fungi. In fact, the cells responsible for fighting infection and foreign invaders in the body (your white blood cells) make hydrogen peroxide and use it to oxidize any offending culprits. The intense bubbling you see when hydrogen peroxide comes in contact with a bacteria-laden cut or wound is the oxygen being released and bacteria being destroyed. The ability of our cells to produce hydrogen peroxide is essential for life. H202 is not some undesirable by-product or toxin, but instead a basic requirement for good health.
Newer research indicates we need hydrogen peroxide for a multitude of other chemical reactions that take place throughout the body. For example, we now know that vitamin C helps fight infections by producing hydrogen peroxide, which in turn stimulates the production of prostaglandins. Also lactobacillus found in the colon and vagina produce hydrogen peroxide. This destroys harmful bacteria and viruses, preventing colon disease, vaginitis, bladder infections and a host of other common ailments. (Infect Dis News Aug.8,91:5). When lactobacillus in the colon or vaginal tract have been overrun with harmful viruses, yeast, or bacteria, an effective douche or enema solution can be made using 3 tablespoons of 3% H202 in 1 quart of distilled water. Keep in mind, however, that a good bacterial flora must always be re-established in theses areas to achieve lasting results.
Aerobic versus Anerobic
While we are discussing enemas and douches, there is another misconception about H202 I need to address. The friendly bacteria in the colon and vagina are aerobic. In other words, they flourish in high oxygen environments and thrive in the presence of oxygen rich H202. On the other hand, most strains of harmful bacteria (and cancer cells) are anaerobic and cannot survive in the presence of oxygen or H202. We can agree that hydrogen peroxide produced within individual body cells is essential for life. And no one doubts its effectiveness when it comes to treating infections topically. The controversy deals with ingesting the substance orally or introducing it into the body intravenously. The dispute has been going on for decades, and considering the attitude of our medical community, it will continue for many more decades to come.
I'll admit I was skeptical when I first learned about using H202 orally or intravenously. This healthy dose of skepticism, however, lead to a great deal of investigation, clinical work and experimentation. And while I realize a large majority of readers will probably never be convinced that H202 is a safe and effective compound, I am. Hydrogen peroxide is safe, readily available and dirt cheap. And best of all, it works! No one yet fully understands the complete workings of hydrogen peroxide. We do know that it is loaded with oxygen. (A pint of the food-grade 35% solution contains the equivalent of 130 pints of oxygen. A pint of 3% hydrogen peroxide found at the local drugstore contains 10 pints of oxygen. And a pint of the 6% solution used to bleach hair contains 20 pints of oxygen.) We also know that when H202 is taken into the body (orally or intravenously) the oxygen content of the blood and body tissues increases dramatically. Early researchers felt these increases were simply due to the extra oxygen molecule being released. This doesn't however, appear to be the case.
Only very diluted amounts of H202 are ever introduced into the body. The small amount of oxygen present couldn't be solely responsible for the dramatic changes that take place. Dr. Charles Farr, a strong proponent of intravenous use, has discovered another possible answer. Dr. Farr has shown that hydrogen peroxide stimulates enzyme systems throughout the body. This triggers an increase in the metabolic rate, causes small arteries to dilate and increase blood flow, enhances the body's distribution and consumption of oxygen and raises body temperature (Proceedings of the International Conference on Bio-Oxidative Medicine 1989, 1990, 1991).

hope this helps. enjoy your garden!

Colina · Apr 14, 2009

Stop foliar feeding as buds form. Cannabis leaves convert nitrates to cancer causing N-nitrosamines.

purpledomgoddes · Apr 14, 2009

Colina said:
Stop foliar feeding as buds form. Cannabis leaves convert nitrates to cancer causing N-nitrosamines.

just an option for those that MAY desire to experiment.

gardeners dont grow tomatoes for the leaves. the fruit is what the gardener seeks, not the leaves of the specific cultivar.

does the science say that the cancer causing nitrates (via electro-chem reaction in leaves ['n-nitrosamines']), are translocated to the fruiting parts (fruits) of the plant after the initial conversion process?

are the n-nitrosamines stored in the leaves of the plant?

are they immobile, or do they attach to (chemically bond) w/ other ions/cations and move around in the plant?

are they not removed from the leaves thru 'flushing', at the conclusion of the season?

if one applies foliar prior to fruits forming, are the carcinogens depleted during the season, to the degree that they are consumable w/ out harm - as long as foliar not applied during fruit formation/development?

please describe electro-chem reaction, translocation properties of the carcinogens, life-cycle, and further bio-chem degradation?

what about the commercially available foliar fruit enhancers on the market? which are viable/ potentially hazardous?

what about molasses foliar during fruiting? are there nitrates in molasses that ultimately cause cancer?

source of the science?

thx for the data. interested in more.

Colina · Apr 14, 2009

Hi Purpledomgoddes,

My comment comes from a paragraph in Hemp Diseases and Pests which references Farnsworth and Cordell (1976 New potential hazard regarding use of marijuana - treatment of plants with liquid fertilizers - Psychedelic Drugs) It was enough to get me to cease this practice during flowering pending further science. The thing is cannabis is not tomatoes and my worry is that bracts calyx etc -what we do indeed smoke- likely perform the same conversion along with smaller leaves that make up buds. Gosh they better be immobile or we are in big trouble, lol. Some good questions you've asked there for sure. Until we have some solid answers I think it best to error on the side of caution, don't you? At any rate, I love to foliar feed, but I'll not spray anything I intend to smoke later.

purpledomgoddes · Apr 14, 2009

thx for the response colina! quality considerations you raise. use the term tomatoes 4 reason. white ash is a good thing!

the practices described above are only from specific garden; your caution is warranted due to your data set. if works for you/your garden, enjoy! there are OPTIONS though, w/ the below-listed parameters in mind:

general foliar feeding practices

- once per week, as they are cumulative. generally not used as feed, but to supply direct application of nutrients to leaves that may have deficiencies.

- ph 7.0-8.5, ^ph influences stomata opening, ec 0.5-1.0/>500 ppm. ph >7.0 generally closes stomata. >4 and <8.5, potassium phosphate toxic to leaves.

- stomata on bottom of most leaves, so spraying from underneath ok.

- stomata open signals:
high rh
moderate temps
low c02 concentration in ambient atmosphere
low light levels
- this is why foliar feeding is done at the initiation of lights in the indoor garden. this
mimics the dew point of the mornings in nature.

- calcium, boron and iron are not applied as foliar due to slow translocation during fast growth/flowering (why gardeners apply additional cal/mag, etc to res/root zone); as a foliar spray, has direct injection to fruiting parts of plant.

- nitrogen/urea used on young plants w/ out reserves+fast blooming plants. note: nitrogen assimilates into cells faster than other nutes and can burn quickly, yet acts as piggy-back transport for other nutes

- potassium is depleted during fruting, so bi-weekly application ok.

- low mobility nutes: copper, zinc, sulphur, manganese, iron, boron, molybdenum (muliple applications ok.)

- high mobility nutes: nitrogen (urea, esp), potassium, phosphorous (few apps)

- immobile nutes: calcium, boron dont get translocated down phloem, so generally not sprayed.

- surfacants: reduce surface tension of water so fluid can get past guard cells, wax platelets covering cuticle of respiration channels, and finally get to cell. bio-degradable dish detergent works. like simple green, or citus-type. want 1 w/ no charge, but negative charge ok, mixed @ ~3ml for every 10ml of solution. droplets simply roll off plant and cannot get through

the ^ are general foliar spraying practices. can be modified +/-, </>, depending on specific garden(er).

hope this helps. enjoy your garden!

PrimoVG · Apr 14, 2009

i've been using h2o2 consistenly for a year (on my plants)...I never knew how complex the effects of using it are....guess there's a lot I dont know

great info purpledomgoddes +rep!

Weezy.Fo.Sheezy · Apr 14, 2009

Most people here are forgetting to mention the addition of a few drops of soap detergent to their foliar spray formulas. The detergent helps "lubricate" the formula so the spray doesn't puddle together forming water drops on the leaves; Water droplets that is just sitting on top of the leaves can cause hotspots with the intensity of some of these HIDs and such...kinda like shining the sun through a magnifying glass to burn ants.

this isn't the most important aspect of foliar feeding but some people like to avoid hotspots

Weezy.Fo.Sheezy · Apr 14, 2009

h2o2 diluted to 3% @ 5 mL per gallon of water is what I used to use with soil every once in awhile but I haven't touched h2o2 since I've been using coco

Row · Apr 15, 2009

Been using foliar feeding successfully for a while now, no concrete evidence as yield increase's could be from a number of things, what i can say is they seem to love it, but youd have to do a side by side to prove it. iv seen no detrimental affects and it also makes seance that theyd like it.

I foliar feed with 3 products, each once a week, one is a Fulvic acid (diamond nectar),

one a Kelp derived spray, micro nutrients and hormones (Ralphs Ultra lush)

http://www.ralphsessentialgrowth.com/ultra_lush.htm

One a micro nutrient/vitamin ( Spay N' Grow)

http://www.spray-n-growgardening.com/info/SNGDFU.pdf

All have 60 ml Dutch masters penetrator added, this product is amazing, i have talked with a guy that does insanely well and he raves about it, the information about the product is awesome and imo it works... its not just a wetting agent.

Monday Ralphs ultra Lush 1ml per liter until week 3 of flowering

Thursday Spray N' Grow 10ml per liter until week 2

Saturday Diamond Nectar 50ml per liter until week 4

Row

Row · Apr 15, 2009

Oh and when using the Penetrator,

DONT PH the spray

Spray with the lights ON but make sure the lights arnt to close, this i presume is because the heat from the bulb may burn the leaf, but the light does not, so as long as the bulb is far enough a way its fine.

Iv only recently starting spaying with the lights on, and iv seen no burns etc

Im going to try the Dutch Masters Liquid light this time round, on just a few plants, sounds awesome but iv read mixed results, we will see......

Row · Apr 18, 2009

Ok bought a small bottle of Liquid Light yesterday and im genna start using it today, ill start at 1/4 strength and just spay a few plants at first, ill post what i find, im hoping its going to work great and not burn the shit out of my plants.

Row

Row · Apr 19, 2009

OK sprayed A few plants with 1/4 strength LL, 4ml LL, 15ml Penertrator 250ml water.

Looked at them a few hours after and no ill effects though im not sure they looked any better than the plants around them. I couldn't clearly see they were more upright etc, most of the plants were fairly upright pointing towards the light anyway...

Ill take some pics in a mo and have them up later,

If all is well in a few days ill up the dose to 1/2 strength...and try it in my better sealed room.....

Row

Row · Apr 19, 2009

OK here are the pics, plants are a bit snarby as they were only TP'd 3 days ago and toped 2 days ago, also the room is non sealed and just not that great. They will go off soon tho, i also sprayed the worst bed of plants to be on the safe side

Doesn't really show anything, no noticeable effect, it does prove that spraying with LL at 1/4 strength with the lights on will NOT burn your plants

Ill try again with 1/2 strength in a few days

Sprayed

[/url][/IMG]

20 mins after the spray

[/url][/IMG]

Before

[/url][/IMG]

During

After

[/url][/IMG]

And a random shot of nicer plants in the room

[/url][/IMG]

Row · Apr 24, 2009

OK, plucked up the courage after some test sprays to do one half the room with LL at 1/2 strength and the other half with my normal spray schedule both with the lights ON and not phing the spray.

So far so good, no burns no problems just awesome looking plants ill get a pic later today....

Row

Philosophelon · May 1, 2009

purpledomgoddes said:
...I'll admit I was skeptical when I first learned about using H202 orally or intravenously. This healthy dose of skepticism, however, lead to a great deal of investigation, clinical work and experimentation...

I believe you... Really, I do. :laughing:

Of course he did a great deal of experiments and clinical trials of the effects of oral and intravenous administration of H2O2 in humans.

Who wouldn't inject H202 directly into their blood stream?

I bet it tingles.

That'd be pretty cool.

By the way, I've got this sweeeeeet fuckin' bridge for sale.

It's dirt-cheap, too.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, I'm about to turn in, and this made my night.

Wait...

On second thought, I think I'm gonna stay up and run a great deal of experiments and clinical trials on the oral and intravenous administration of H2SO4 in humans -- and it's got DOUBLE the Oxygen!!!

It's gonna be DOUBLE your medical breakthough!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Get it?

Hint:
The first one is an inorganic chemistry joke, and the second a knee-slapper involving discrete mathematics.

Still?

Well, that's why there's wikipedia.

Ok, I gotta stop now or I won't be able to get to sleep

.

Alright, one more.

purpledomgoddes said:
No one yet fully understands the complete workings of hydrogen peroxide.

Except for high school students taking AP Chemistry!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

I think I'm gonna start breathing straight ozone -- think of all the extra oxygen!!!!

I'm going to be the healthiest man alive!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Sorry, I don't mean to be a dick, but sometimes I can't resist :nanana:

.

pineappaloupe · May 24, 2009

"actually do the same w/ root feeding. apply myco, ferts, etc., then hydro-perox to root zone to kill beneficials - and non-bene's - and cleanse roots w/ oxygenation."

why kill the beneficials again?

If you are feeding with organic nutrients, that need to be broken down by your microherd... WHY KILL THEM. I can see why one would do this when using purely chemical nutes.

I really really really do not think h2o2 should be put into soil when you are using organics. Purple said some good things, but the part about adding it to soil is borderline misinformation.

purpledomgoddes · Jun 28, 2009

Philosophelon said:
I believe you... Really, I do.

Of course he did a great deal of experiments and clinical trials of the effects of oral and intravenous administration of H2O2 in humans.

Who wouldn't inject H202 directly into their blood stream?

I bet it tingles.

That'd be pretty cool.

By the way, I've got this sweeeeeet fuckin' bridge for sale.

It's dirt-cheap, too.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, I'm about to turn in, and this made my night.

Wait...

On second thought, I think I'm gonna stay up and run a great deal of experiments and clinical trials on the oral and intravenous administration of H2SO4 in humans -- and it's got DOUBLE the Oxygen!!!

It's gonna be DOUBLE your medical breakthough!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Get it?

Hint:
The first one is an inorganic chemistry joke, and the second a knee-slapper involving discrete mathematics.

Still?

Well, that's why there's wikipedia.

Ok, I gotta stop now or I won't be able to get to sleep .

Alright, one more.

Except for high school students taking AP Chemistry!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

I think I'm gonna start breathing straight ozone -- think of all the extra oxygen!!!!

I'm going to be the healthiest man alive!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Sorry, I don't mean to be a dick, but sometimes I can't resist .

those quotes are from the article cited.

pineappaloupe said:
"actually do the same w/ root feeding. apply myco, ferts, etc., then hydro-perox to root zone to kill beneficials - and non-bene's - and cleanse roots w/ oxygenation."

why kill the beneficials again?

If you are feeding with organic nutrients, that need to be broken down by your microherd... WHY KILL THEM. I can see why one would do this when using purely chemical nutes.

I really really really do not think h2o2 should be put into soil when you are using organics. Purple said some good things, but the part about adding it to soil is borderline misinformation.

use coco, no dumping of run-off. no air stone. so have to oxygenate water, or will become stagnant.

use flora nova bloom. supposedly chem/hydro mix. dont really know for sure how beneficials or non-beneficials react to h202. would speculate that some of each survive the h202. only presenting what has worked here. ma not work in every garden.

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