Calculating Nutrient levels

I think it is possible to measure the EC of organic nutes. Once the composting of the organic source is complete, it produces water soluble nutes that the plant can use. Therefore, precomposted nutes, will produce water soluble extracts, like Pure Blend Pro, which can be measured on an EC/TDS meter.

I invite people who have facts about how much nutrient they use per gallon, to explore how much NPKand Mg they are supplying in their mixes.

The recipes I have been studying over the years have certain things in common, for example, the N levels usually run between 100ppm in bloom, up to 400ppm in veg.

The P levels generally run 40ppm in veg to 100ppm in bloom, but PBP recipes also limit P in bloom to 40ppm.

The K levels generally run 200+ppm in veg, and drop just below 200 for bloom, except Canna Coco recipes drop to 100

Mg levels tend to be in the 20-30ppm range for veg, and 45-70ppm for bloom

Here is the result of using The GrowGreen "Organic" Hydro Formula 15ml/gal PBPBloom, plus 5ml/gal Cal Mag
N 161
P 45
K 214
Mg 45

The Lucas Formula, thanks to pH, 8ml/gal Flora Micro, plus 16ml/gal Flora Bloom (or 8ml/gal FloraNova Bloom)
N 130
P 106
K 183
Mg 73

Notice how much lower the P and Mg levels are in PureBlend

I invite people interested in learning what their working nutrient recipe is delivering, to provide dosage info.

for example, if your mix is PBPBloom @15 ml/gal, plus 15ml/gal Sweet, instead of 5ml of Cal Mag, I volunteer to post the calculated results, if someone posts the guaranteed analysis of Sweet. I need the NPK and Mg percentages, plus the net weight of a 1 gallon bottle.

Thanks
Lucas

background reading
nutrient profiles http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=21119
cabinet and bubbler concepts http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=21117

well I know when I bubble bat guano tea overnight the ppm's go from about 300 to 600

high c-ray

interesting observation

I wonder if it has something to do with the ongoing change of the raw material to a water soluble form?

I wonder how much %Nitrogen is on the label, does it say?

I wonder whether the ppms would keep going up each 24 hours of bubbling? and, is the bubbling a way to introduce oxygen that helps reduce the anaerobic bacteria, and increase the aerobic bacterial action in the incompletely composted guano..

iow, organics in this case is a source material that has not finished decomposing, sort of a time release feature..

btw, when the guano goes up in ppms, does it also drop in pH? I think guano is risky business in hydro, exactly because as you have noted, we dont know how much Nitrogen is available..

I think this unavailable part, is the reason folks mention that you cant burn your plants with organics. But that is not true if the organics are not completely composted. I think one could overdose a plant on guano, or any other manure, dont you agree?

Also, when folks mention certain nutes cant be combined with other brands or types, I think it stems from incompatible pH ranges. For example if you mix a high pH product with a low pH product, they neutralize, form a chemical bond (lockout), and precipitate out of solution.. but this same lockout would happen when mixing low pH guano, with high pH straw...

Point being simply that, unless we know how much Nitrogen is being put in with the guano, and how much guano is being used, we cant compare recipes.

fwiw, I have total respect for a human being's ability to "feel" what their plants need. This is why I am asking for formulas from folks that have developed a feel, so I can translate them to elemental ppm's

I know its hard to ask a chef how many teaspoons of salt they use, but it really helps share the knowledge, if the chef is able to develop a repeatable recipe.

thanks for your input
Lucas

it's listed as:2-26-0

I think we are looking at 2 distinct processes here: extraction and decompostition, extraction is basically sucking the goods out into solution, while decomposition actually breaks down matter

incidently I use rainwater to bubble it, rainwater is natures distilled water and is more solvent than tapwater since the rainwater has nothing and wants something whereas tapwater already has something and doesn't want as much, and tapwater has minerals, etc. that potentially can interfere with proper decomposition
the addition of humic acid, fulvic acid and molasses (a natural chelator) to the bubbly brews helps in the decomposition process, as well as providing food for bacteria (molasses) and fungi (humic/fulvic acids)

high P guano always drives the pH down, as do most organic P sources in my experience

when using organics I usually aim for an npk ratio of 2-1-3 for veg and 1-2-3 for flowering

now here's a good point I just thought of...when using organics it is always best to use sources that have already undergone some sort of decomposition (composting) process, this is natures way of organizing and stabilizing things, for instance when making some backyard compost with 2 simple ingredients, a bag of alfalfa pellets and 1 bale of straw (both available from farm feed stores) plus a little bit of water and you will get roughly the right ratio of carbon to nitrogen for proper composting to occur, and it will take on average between 1-2 months in temperate climates and only 1/2-1 month in tropical climates to decompose to state where it is ready for application (figure this out by measuring the temps at the center of the compost, when they drop and steady it is ready), now we can use this compost right away but it is better to let it keep composting, in fact if you can let it go for 6 months or as long as 2 years it will only get better, even though from the surface glace and through measurement most of the work will have taken place in the 1-2 month initial period nature in her infinte intelligence will keep organizing and stabilizing, refining it so to speak until the masses of microbes have found their balance and have made it mostly bio-available, if I added a few tablespoons of granite dust to the initial mix of alfalfa and straw the extra wating period would be well worth it since it takes longer for the elemental minerals to break down fully, to put it into terms that the common grower can appreciate the longer waiting period will result in buds that burn cleaner, something that organic growers will appreciate

which brings us to another good point about organics...how bio-available are the individual nutrients? sure they can be measured as percentages of individual elements but what size are the actual molecules of those elements? heavier molecules are not as useful and will result in buds that don't burn as nicely

here's another thing to think about, we can take some alfalfa pellets and bubble them up to extract the goods out of them...or we can take the same alfalfa and feed it to rabbits then take the rabbit pellets and bubble them...or to go even further we could take those rabbit pellets and feed them to earthworms then take the worm castings and brew those...which brew do you think would have the smallest molecules and most bio-available nutrition?

now imagine if we actually grew the alfalfa to feed the rabbits using the finished 3-way compost (alfalfa->rabbits->worms) with the addition of granite dust and seaweeds for minerals to the alfalfa patch...

organic compost is for soil, not for hydro

organic compost is for soil, not for hydro

> high P guano always drives the pH down, as do most organic P sources in my experience

in non organic sources, P still brings pH down, hence the use of Phosphoric Acid as a pH down amendment

I find the implication that organic nutes behave differently than refined sources misleading.

The only difference I can see in the use of organics vs refined nutrients, is that the organics are not fully available at one time.

However, the biggest confusion comes from using the concepts of organics ourdoors and attempting to apply them to indoor hydro.

There is no way anybody is going to produce a balanced repeatable nutrient recipe by putting guano, or rabbit manure, or worm casting, into a hydro system.

As you point out, organics need to compost for much longer than the length of an indoor crop cycle.

If I was able to grow outdoors in the soil, sun, wind, and rain, I would be using Biodynamic French intensive gardening techniques. Double Digging, composting, manures, worms, etc.

However, Im most interested in finding an organic liquid nutrient regimen that can be poured from a bottle, into a reservoir, without having to deal with uncomposted products.

Putting molasses into a hydro res, or putting manure into a hydro res, is just not what organic hydro is about.

Thanks for the discussion about soil based organics, I agree completely.

What im missing, is a viable, repeatable organic hydro recipe.

The only product I know of that is claimed fully organic, and that matches the nutrient levels in GH Flora series exactly, is Metanaturals.

Lucas

for indoors hydro try using a coffee maker to extract the teas from organic source materials (guanos, greensand, etc.)

Hydro Organic, not outdoor composting

Hydro Organic, not outdoor composting

> for indoors hydro try using a coffee maker to extract the teas from organic source materials (guanos, greensand, etc.)

thats what Pure Blend is, a tea from composted organic source materials

are you suggesting that people interested in organic hydro should mix and match their own ingredients based on "feel"?

or

does anybody have a complete organic hydro recipe to propose? by complete I mean, enough NPKMg and trace minerals, with proper pH ballance to bring in a healthy harvest.

Im asking for a Hydro Organic recipe, not a soil ammendment recipe.

thanks
Lucas

a coffee maker will extract nutrients using hot water, it won't really compost them, I've heard there can be bacterial slime buildup problems when using live organics in hydro though I guess that can be remedied by using lots of enzymes, it should be simple enough to come up with a fairly well balanced mix of dry organics, pop them into a coffee filter in a coffee maker and run a few pots of coffee to suck out the nutes, I'm thinking a combo of guano, greensand and kelp in the coffee maker then add epsom salts and calcium nitrate and maybe a little molasses

high c-ray

thanks for sharing your knowledge.

> I'm thinking a combo of guano, greensand and kelp in the coffee maker then add epsom salts and calcium nitrate and maybe a little molasses

sounds good
I would like to know what NPK and Mg levels such a mix would produce.

I would need to know the quantities of each product to be used.

I believe you have enough experience and knowledge to formulate your own nutes by feel, and I would like to be able to teach others how to copy your successful formula.

it would take a lot of work to come up with the math facts, but Im willing to work on it with you. For starters we need NPK and Mg facts for each ingredient in your mix.

Also, it is important that any composting occur before the products are added to the reservoir. Molasses is sure to cause slime if used raw. Bacteria do not belong in a hydro res, as the instability of pH would be unwelcome. A hydro res needs to contain nutes that are water soluble, there is no time for bacteria to decompose ammonia, and nitrite, to nitrate in a hydro bloom cycle.

thanks again for sharing your knowledge
Lucas

sorry lucas I don't do hydro so I wouldn't be able to come up with a formula for you, at least not one with real world testing to back it up...but if I had to come up with something I would aim for numbers close to 2-1-3 for veg and 1-2-3 for bloom and roughly .5 each of calcium, magnesium, iron and sulfur, then feed a few plants and use leaf analysis to tweak the formula

oh man i tried molasses in the hydro res once. the sugars were consumed and it made carbon dioxide. made the water look like something floating on lake erie in the 1970s.

lucas...first off I want to thank you for ALL you have done in this field. You are an inspiration to us all Next, IMO the only way to go for organic hydro is the precomposted teas like pbp, ej, metanaturals, etc. Wouldn't one of the problems with homemade organic teas, be pH fluctuation. I feel that the issue is more about the fact that guano's are not stable and need to be broken down further in order to be processed, and the fact that there are no pH buffers to help keep the pH within range. Whats your take?

> the only way to go for organic hydro is the precomposted teas like pbp, ej, metanaturals, etc

I agree that PBP is a good almost organic product, and I think Metanaturals is great @10ml per gal of 3-3-3 base mix plus 10ml/gal of the 1-5-5 bloom mix, at least by the math. It is exactly the same as the GH formula I like, except it is "organic".

I have not heard anyone who was happy with the smell, slime, and function of EJ in hydro.

I also believe there are many people who have reinvented the wheel successfully and designed their own nutes mixes by "feel". They just cant teach anyone else how to copy them, because they dont know how much of anything they use...

bottom line for me is to solve the nutrient needs with as few products as possible. imho, Flora Nova is the simplest most complete one bottle solution. It contains composted Kelp, but is not labeled "organic".

organic is a lot of things to a lot of people, check out my signature links, they include a clip from the GH site about what "organic" means.

I certainly do not recommend trying to compost your nutes in a hydro system. The grow cycle is too short, and the nutes wont be stable.

Lucas

Hi, this thread is great.

I use a hydro-organic recipe but it's very hard to pin down as most of my nutes are fish waste.

Added to this I bubble EJ (mixed as directed for bloom) 24 hours then add it to system at 1/40th recommended hydro strength twice a week. One reason I bubble nutes is to oxygenate them before they hit my system so they don't strip the precious air out of it.

Now, the bulk of my nutes (fish wastes) ARE composted in-system, how? beneficial bacteria.

To see the effectiveness of this compost/filtration system I recently moved a large fish having difficulties into a hospital tank. This 1/2 lb fish can filthy up 25 gallons of water overnight so it's cloudy and the bottom of the tank covered in pink dust (broken up poos)

In my system I have 3 lb's of fish in 40 gallons eating and shitting constantly. The only time the water ever gets cloudy is when I add the EJ. Within 12 hours it's run clear again. I have NEVER changed out my water in over 2 years. Two partials changes at harvest times now even that practise is stopped. My system uses everything. Of course I top up the water, over a gallon a day.

In system composting doesn't get any better than this. Plants have wastes and beneficial bacteria dine on them.

Anyone wanting to go organic-hydro I'd recommend studying bio-buckets, ignoring the - bio wont work for organics advice - and getting familiar with water quality, recirculation, and beneficial bacteria.

I'm willing to study and work hard on the side to help pin down organic hydro.

Why? I LOVE GROWING

Hi Lucas

You stated that 10 mL 3-3-3 and 10 mL 1-5-5 Metanaturals works out to GH Lucas formula. What are you using for unit weight? It is not printed on my bottles, and the guys at MN did not respond to that particular question in an email. Their website is stonewalling me too. You must know someone. Or have a scale...

GM

no unit weights were used

no unit weights were used

great question!

I did not use any unit weight to get these values:
GH 8micro, 16bloom
N 106
P 92
K 158


Metanaturals 10A 10B
N 106
P 92
K 175

If I had to use unit weights, I would weigh the Metanaturals.. The GH weights are already in the spreadsheet, for example, bloom is 1.148941172 and could be inferred to Metanaturals if you wanted a guesstimate..

Lucas

ok sorry i didnt read most of the thread, though you first mentioned calculating the ec of pure blend pro.. im thinking this is because it isnt 100% organic, its organic based.. therefore there might be some reading there...

> im thinking this is because it isnt 100% organic

I see this opinion all over this board, that one cannot measure the EC of organics..

Metanaturals is 100% organic, and you can most definitely measure its EC

imho, the statement that "you cant measure the EC of organic nutes" is false.

just my opinion, not wanting to offend all the people who repost that belief

Lucas

i'm thinking about starting my closet back up soon, and i've been trying to decide on a formula to run with.

now, i've been a firm believer in organic gardening for a long time. done indoors and out with grass and veggies too. but with indoor gardening under HID lighting i am begining to see how organic production might be counter-productive in some ways...

now, when i'm saying organic, i'm talking about good old fashioned dirt! ammended soil with various guanos and compost.

indoors, running at 18/6 hours of light the life cycle of plants is sped up considerably as we all know. unless the dirt has been worked for a considerable time, i really don't know if a plant can manage to use those nutes in the soil very efficiently over the length of the grow. now, most of us dirt farmers do add additional bottled nutes when we grow indoors, not to mention catalysts and god knows what else.

obviously hydro is more effective, that's been proven over and over. i don't even think taste is an issue (ask anyone who's lucky enough to smoke rez's bud), but that's just from lurking here.

i have always just stood by organic farming because it's sustainable and better for the enviroment. but i'm learning that's not always true when we're talking indoors. also, i may have had mispercetions about the manufacturing of chem nutes and their safety for consupmtion versus popular organic nute formulas.

i've never grown soiless, and i am thinking of running my closet with promix (no ammendments) and putting half the plants on lucas's GH formula and the other half on lucas's metanaturals formula and seeing what the difference really woud be.

lucas, thanks for all the info, you've literally changed my perceptions on growing indoors...

Thanks for the very kind words, I look forward to learning more from your experience with metanaturals, Ive met very few people who have used it..

my tip for medium like promix, is to use GH at 1/3 strength, with every watering, (2ml micro, 4ml bloom per gallon, or FloraNova @ about 2ml/gal, target EC of runoff no higher than 2.0) because I fear it is too strong if the soil is not properly irrigated to prevent nute accumulations in the medium. Same applies to the Metanaturals formula of 10a-10b, drop it to 3a 3b

the recipes I give are for DWC and ebb flow, if medium is used that retains nutes, I drop the irrigant concentration and focus on the runoff concentration to hit the EC 2.0 target

you CAN water with full strength, if you only feed every 3rd watering.. same difference as every watering at 1/3

hth
Lucas