The Organic Think Tank

I'm stoned, and a tad tipsy, so I can't remember which mod said it (Gr3atful maybe?), but they said "Organics - The Rube Goldberg machine of indoor gardening"

For those of you who don't know, a Rube Goldberg machine takes a simple act, and makes it as complicated as possible.

As a dirty chem grower, this statement seems dead on to me. Organics is like learning Chinese - Hard to learn, harder to master, and pretty much pointless.

Don't get me wrong, I've seen terribly impressive organic grows. I've even smoked out of organic grows. Thing is though, the organics weren't, on those particular genetics, anything to write home about. The same strain in a non-organic system yielded the same, and the smoke was no different at all.

Granted, both of these grows were by what I consider experts in their field. The organic hydro grower and the non-organic grower were equally matched in skill and experience.

So, in light of that, why should a grower go organic? If the same yield and quality are produced, why take the longer road? Let's face it, if we are being honest, proper organic gardening is more intensive than non-. Where are the benefits?

For the sake of a clear discussion, let's eliminate some possible answers:

"Organics yield better" - Horse pucky. Growers who know their medium and methods will get the most out of a strain, no matter the source of nutrients. If you disagree with this, you need to read more and experience more.

"Organics taste better" - Bullshit. I've had the same strain, grown by organics and one grown non-, and each was superb, with no differences. In a taste test of 30 ppl, no one could tell the difference.

Now, despite the inflammatory title, this thread is not meant as an attack on organics. I'm well aware of organics, and their capabilities, and don't mean to diminish either.

Simply state your case, and let your voice be heard.

This could even become a sticky, depending on the quality of your responses. A good, well reasoned debate will be invaluable to new growers exploring their options. A flame fest of bullshit gets this locked.

Choose wisely, to quote Indiana Jones III

Now...

Discuss!

What are the best non-organic hydro nutes?

Goldengreens said:

What are the best non-organic hydro nutes?

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That's open to debate. Ask a hundred growers and you'll get 100 different answers.

More to the point of the thread, why choose any organic, even if it is "the best organic fert known to man", when chem ferts are, more often than not, cheaper and easier to manage?

organics are better for you, more natural and have less of an impact on the environment. now that the hippie stuff is out of the way...lol. seriously, organics are better for you and the environment. most fertilizers come from petroleum based products. the organic soil mix i use couldn't be any easier. 10 minutes to mix, pot plants right away and just add water. thats it. simple, painless, and grows fantastic buds.

Oh boy, this is gonna be fun. In short, I'm with you.

For those that like my wordy long versions:

I did an organic nutes vs salt nutes in my 8kw coco grow, and on the same strains, AN Sensi beat Pura Vida Organics for yield, but not by much. Taste and aroma are the same. I also spent about 5X as much on the organic nutes, so it was a lose-lose scenario.

Outdoors where larger volumes of soil, older and larger plants, nutes, water and light come into play, organic nutes tend to lessen the top feeding/fertigating needs, making watering simpler by supplying plain water. Most of this is a necessity, due to the frequent absence of power or outdoor reservoirs right where plants need them. Water hoses are just easier to string. This does not mean organics are superior for outdoor weed.

Indoors plants have tighter environmental controls, and nutrients can be controlled more carefully for short-cycle crops. We need immediate availability to the roots, as they won't have months of veg time to grow giant root balls indoors. Most organic nutrients are absorbed more slowly, and the best organic growers use elaborate bacteria and fungi microherds to digest and manage nutes. Reservoirs become living things full of all sorts of funky organic matter, and if poorly managed it will quickly grow anaerobic bacteria, algae, pythium and rot your roots. This all takes valuable time if not done by a very experienced hand, and anything that slows down growth diminishes yields. There is no time for screwing about indoors.

I feel it's pretty common knowledge that few organic growers outperform salt nutes for yields indoors. There are some that can do it, but I'd call them master growers who have been riding the organic train a long time and never found a salt regimen they liked.

I'd also venture to say that organics indoors are a waste of time, since a properly flushed salt regimen will have the same or better quality, superior yield, faster plant growth and cost less money than bottled organic nutes.

A proper outdoor hydroponic setup with hydroponic nutes were to be grown side by side against an organic soil grow, I'd still wager the hydro setup would outyield the organic side.

Organic nutes may be cheaper when buying in bulk, they may be more convenient to mix into soil for long-duration growth, and remove the need for reservoirs of nutes for where it's not feasible. But none of this makes organics grow superior weed.

NiteTiger said:

More to the point of the thread, why choose any organic, even if it is "the best organic fert known to man", when chem ferts are, more often than not, cheaper and easier to manage?

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Regarding soil...quality organics have an upfront cost. After that, its all gravy.

On the other hand, nasty synthesized petro-chemicals bring the salt. And they bring it like its going out of style.

Once salt builds up in soil...the up front cost advantage of chem-ferts goes out the window. For then you're paying for a leaching agent, more water to flush, and new soil for your next grow.

Organics....you just keep on keeping on.

Build up in soil only occurs for those that reuse it, most guys don't do this indoors. Outdoors it's hard not to, but my guess is most organic hydro guys are not using them outdoors. I reuse my indoor soil on my rose bushes and veggies, they dig it!

God I love IC, you guys never let me down! Already some great responses, let's expound on those for a deeper understanding...

First, I should explain what I am trying to accomplish with this thread. This thread (internet speak for a particular discussion in a wider ranging forum) is based on the Socratic Method of Teaching. In short, the Socratic Method is

"While the Socratic Method can be effectively used in guiding others toward a better understanding of established subjects such as mathematics, it is very often used to stimulate positive growth in the quality of human discourse. That is, the method seeks to eliminate all notions of complete understanding of any topic so as to remove barriers that surround a higher level of knowledge. Socrates said that the only thing he knew was that he knew nothing at all.

Click to expand...

That being said, let's address some conspicuous points that have been made already.

In short, I can't much argue with Lazy's post. His short answer says why. But his long answer begs questions worth deep consideration. Why would an indoor grower choose organics?

Lazy offers that organics offer a benefit in outdoor (read: long-term) grows in lasting efficiency. If I understand Lazy's post correctly, long-term outdoor growers may see a benefit in long term effeciency, but not necessarily in short cycle indoor grows.

A very valid consideration.

However, MostHigh, brings his own valid point. Petrochemicals, which all chem nutes use, are a no-no in today's society. However, he brings, as illustration of his point, salt buildup. As Lazy points out, though, that's not typically a factor in most indoor occasions.

An indoor producer is less likely to see a negative result with chem ferts over the course of the product (no reuse, or non-flush reuse). This is simply due to nature, in that outdoor crops receive an externally dictated photoperiod, compared to an indoor's tightly controlled photoperiod.

So are organics best suited to outdoor applications? What is the advantage in running organic hydro, which is, almost by definition, an indoor run?

E: To Lazy - Yeah, this should be a great thread, as long as we keep the flames on low

I like to keep things simple.

Inside I run hempy buckets with lucas formula General Hydroponics nova series.

Outside its Organics, I use my own organic premix recipe that is mixed into my native soil.

Each technique has its place.

Its up to you to apply them effectively.

Well said Xare!

The best solution is the one that works in your situation

there is no organic standard...

if you grow indoors under HPS/MH you are not organic. It's not only about the soil and nutrients. the sun, wind, rain, land and neighbor plants affect the medicine.
IMO soil should be left outside if you wish for a true organic grow.

even soma's beds are not 100% organic. in his book, he uses superthrive (which is not organic). but again... what is?
using a CO2 burner is not either.

a true organic grow is plants pollinating themselves, growing untouched in a natural outdoor setting. all you have to do is go and pick them.

organic hydro is not organic. the food might be vegan based... but the whole process is not organic (or whatever). there are too many variables when it comes down to organic growing.

read "TEAMING WITH MICROBES" and see for yourself how complicated and interconnected an "organic" garden is. it's not only about the food you feed. There are many living organisms that support that "organic" plant.

i don't see a true "organic" hydro as a correct term.

like mg75, i too am immediately thinking that "organic hydro" is an oxymoron

however, i also feel like stipulations to the effect that you can't consider an artificially lit garden to be organic are a little too stringent

if the nute sources are organic, than the grow can be certified thusly (yes, USDA, OMRI, oregon tilth, et al DO standardize and certify for organic standards)

BUT, if you spent too much on your "organic" grow, you are simply running a variation on a chem grow -one which may be "certified organic" but, which is not in the spirit of "organics." in today's market economy, organic has become a buzzword used to sell product -don't be surprised if you are then dissatisfied w/ the product. HELLO? dumbasses - they just want you to buy the product. "organic" means nothing to corp america. sustainability? just look at corps and banks and government tripping all over themselves to fuck themselves up. corp america knows nothing of sustainability.

WHY? would you buy a product from these entities w/ any expectation that it is what it says on the bottle?

organic ~ = biological - the spirit is that there is sustainability. Now, if you're going to the store (which is unavoidable at first and for a while) sustainability becomes questionable. If you throw soil away, sustainability becomes questionable.

however, if as much of your "products" come from your yard/neighbours/local farm what kind of sustainability is in this model?

People go to the local hardware store for lawn feed and dandelion poison and shit to fix what the lawn feed and dandelion poison did to their yard last year - then they go and buy the same crap again.

maybe they could mow w/ a mulching mower? maybe they could water w/ aquarium water when it's time to clean the fish tank? maybe we could let the dandelions grow and their life cycle could be feeding the lawn. And maybe we could compost our lawn clippings for the weed garden? (@ least once in a while bag your clippings) use the dandelion flowers for flower tea to feed the flowers? (and the greens to eat/compost?)

in this model, the consumer saves on all his "lawn care" products and produces their own ferts for a sustainable organic indoor garden -thus saving those expenses too.

Where could "organics costs more" possibly come into this discussion?

i just don't understand how someone who gives advice like "try GH" or "PBP nutes work" can turn around and say "organics=teh sux" because the bottle that said "organic" costs more and does the same thing.

organics done right becomes free over time.

I know very little about organic growing. But i've been growing indoors with chemicals for 10 years. I recently went into a local hydro store to buy some Organic nutes. I wanted to do a few pots organic just to compare. Well I was floored by the price. They were at least 5x more expensive then the chemical counterparts. Now I thought to myself I know these are harder to use to equal the performance of the chemicals why bother???

IMO the best is a hybrid of both chemical and organic. It makes things easier to control, but you also get all the micro-crap from organics.

The one thing I never use is a chemical pesticide if needed. That goes for my yards as well. All my pesticides are OMRI. While being in the military I was exposed to some of the most carcinogenic chemicals in the world. Now that I am out, I stay far away from crap like that. Even household cleaners.

Get a bottle of XXX out from under your sink and actually look up the MSDS on each chemical. Even remotely safe products can be horrible!

Personally, I have found that organic soil(less) growing is easier than hydro or running synthetic nutes, especially if you are not mono-cropping. It is hard to overfeed with organics and it is therefore more forgiving. There are no reservoirs to deal with, no slime/pumps/topping off/ec/pH/res temps etc. I run Earth Juice nutes, which are very inexpensive. The GO line is also pretty reasonable. Both give terrific results. Build a decent soil, feed and water, and let nature take it's course. What could be easier?

In the past year i've done 3 different soil mixes, a hydro run and am now doing my second organics run.

For ease of use, i would have to go for Organic. I use the bone/blood/kelp/greensand combination. True, you have to mix it up well and let it cook for 2-3 weeks but after that the ease of use is far dominant to me. I filter water, let it sit for 24 hours, and if i feel like it, i'll throw a lil molasses in there before i feed. They are in 2 gallon buckets and i give them about a quart of water every few days.

With my chemical nute regimen i got fantastic results, too. But watching pH is the biggest issue. I had to get out my pH pen, clean it, use storage solution, calibrate. These things were much bigger of a nuisance to me than waiting 2-3 week for the soil to become usable.

- SubN

wrong
yes you an grow great pot IN A STERILE CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT WITH ONLY MICRO AND MACRO nutrients

but add the natural variables such as pests, drought and disease and you will find your plants are lacking some very important biological components that naturally boost their resistance to said factors

if you doubt it put your GH system outside under the big HPS under the sun and use nothing but micro and macro nutes

no pesticides

no fungicides

no wilt proof, silica or any other amendment that you will need for the plant to succeed in an environment where the natural components it uses to fight said factors are removed

tell me how well it grows then

calling the soil web that all flora evolved and adapted to over these millennium a rube goldberg machine does not seem to be something I can see head saying unless it its out of context

such as

in a controlled environment you do not need more than macro or micro nutes to grow quality marijuana. Even more true if the fruit of your labor is seed. Beyond that I will still contend that while an ion is and ion I feel that a complex source of nutrients being broken into an array of ions via a soil web will give you a greater spectrum of taste and flavor and since science is still in discovery about the complete identification and working mechanism of the soil web i wouldn't be so quick to doubt its power

but even if you dont see an added benefit form organics what sense does knocking organically derived nutrients if they are nothing more than a healthy alternative

can i get an answer to that?

..............................Hmmmmmm

isnt organic a better way to produce tastier product? organic produce in the gorcery store is far tastier than chemically grown and sprayed fruits and veggies. if we're talking about yield then i think chemical wins because its more available right away to the plant among other reasons but to say organics suck? i dont know why someone with so many posts would start this thread

again...
who made who an authority on "organic" grows?
"organic" plant food is considered one when there is carbon present. it means that the food was derived from a living organism that died/converted to the "plant food" state.
sure, you can add organic food and benefit your plants. that does not mean you grow organically.
maybe it's more accurate to say you feed your plants organic food and not grow organically.

organic growing as a whole cannot be done indoors under HPS lights and all the other "perfect" room grows. i am sorry, but you are not an organic "god" in your room (BC perfect rooms).

true organics is using the land, sun, rain, and no pesticides. the medicine has grown like that for thousands of years.

the indoor grow revolution is a new phenomenon and so is the "organic" way.

don't believe the all the hype.