MM's Info on Myco

Information posted from Microbeman.
I'll take a little credit for the Eco12 stuff.

Mycorrhizal Fungi; Myths and Truths
I am beginning this thread in an effort to clear up some of the misconceptions which have been circulating concerning mycorrhizal fungi and to point out some facts, pertaining to its usefulness. This is done to the best of my ability and knowledge and as in all things, I can be wrong or there can be information not yet available. I am completely open to correction, input and questions.

Because this forum deals with the cultivation of Cannabis (hemp), I will refrain from spending a lot of time on mycorrhizal fungi other than endomycorrhizal. Briefly ectomycorrhizal fungi predominantly form associations with certain types of trees. An example of this is truffles which form symbiotic, mutualistic associations with trees such as Hazel Nut, Holly Oak and English Oak. In the ‘ecto’ group there is a sub-group which is referred to as ectendomycorrhizal fungi. It is merely a description for fungi which displays both ecto & endo traits. [outside & inside]

Typically ectomycorrhizal fungal hyphae surround and encapsulate the roots of the plant they are colonizing and exchange nutrients by proximity, while endomycorrhizal fungal hyphae enter the cells of the roots to exchange nutrients. Fungal hyphae are microscopic strands which grow from fungal spores, hyphal complexes and mushrooms. Many of them combine to create fungal mycelia, visible to the human eye.

Two sub-groups of endomycorrhizal fungi are Arbuscular Mycorrhizal fungi (the most common and what we are concerned with here) and Ericoid Endomycorrhizal fungi. In the latter there are two additional sub-groups Arbutoid Endomycorrhizal fungi and Monotropoid Endomycorrhizal fungi. There is no current research I know of indicating that these are of value in supporting the growth of cannabis/hemp.

For those interested in exploring this further here is some excellent information compiled by a student. The biology of mycorrhizas home page

There is some research indicating that there is another type of fungi which may be mycorrhizal with plants. It is labeled ‘dark septate endophyte(s)’. It is my hypothesis that some of the species of fungi imperfecti grown out of [vermi]compost into compost tea are this type of fungi but that is yet to be researched. [the term ‘fungi imperfecti’ is used in this case to describe species of fungi lacking a (so far discovered) sexual stage and typical fruiting body]

The word mycorrhiza has been tossed around willy nilly and there has been enough money ass hype spewed to choke a hundred horses. Mycorrhiza is not the fungi. It is the word used to describe the symbiosis or mutualistic association between root and fungi. Mycorrhizae is plural of this. The term to describe the type of fungi itself is mycorrhizal fungi.

We all know that there is a plethora of products on the market with super attractive labeling and names. Super Ecto Screaming Eagle Myco, is fictional but representative of the crap one is confronted with. In reality if you are serious about getting endomycorrhizal fungi to colonize the roots of your plants you should know that, according to current science of which I am aware, there are only two known endomycorrhizal fungi species which colonize the roots of cannabis/hemp.

They are Glomus Intraradices and Glomus Mosseae. If you are looking for the maximum potential to colonize roots of this species, your chances go up with the higher spore/propagule count per gram. Unless you have a mix specifically formulated I know of no product which includes only these two fungal species. Because Intraradices has been shown (through studies) to be a relatively easy colonizer of most endo-type plants world wide, it is logical to consider using it as a stand alone mycorrhizal inoculant (if you live in North America), because;
1/ It is produced in North America
2/ one can get (in bulk) powder based products at a spore/propagule count of 3200 per gram 1,452,800 per pound or a liquid product at 2,000,000 spores/propagules per gram (available as agricultural products > Increase your yield with MYKE® PRO mycorrhizae ). To get Glomus Mosseae at such densities would be very challenging. [I’m hoping that this will be available in smaller packages in 2012, at least higher than 200 spores/gram]
　
Your best bet to get colonization is to apply the spores to the seeds or prepared cutting and/or the roots at planting time. There are apparently some studies showing that it can take up to 6 weeks for the full benefits of infection to be measurable which has led some to conclude that endomycorrhizal fungi is not that useful in the normally fast paced growth 'pattern' of indoor grown cannabis. This is by all means not even close to being 100% factual. I have yet to satisfy myself of this issue one way or the other, having read some studies indicating early infection/colonization. [I will attempt to update the thread later if I learn something relevant to this]

The foregoing is not intended to imply that there are only two types of fungi which will ever associate with cannabis. Far from it. There are many species of mycorrhizal fungi, yet unidentified and as usual scientists are only scraping the surface in the research in this area. There may well be fungal species growing in the field behind your house which are indigenous endomycorrhizal fungi (or dark septate endophytes or…?) which may associate with cannabis/hemp just fine. What I have outlined is simply your most logical route to success if you are going to buy the spores.

The following is a post by Eco I copied from the other thread which nicely outlines the mycorrhizal species available on the market. I’ve included the post which appeared prior to his as well for cohesiveness.

Quote:
Posted by Ccoastal;
"That's like saying oxycodone and percocet are the same thing for having the same ingredients. It's all about the formulation. "

Posted by Eco12;
"If you're talking about mycos, it's not necessarily accurate. It really comes down to spore count (propagules in many cases here in the US), and types of mycos.

The BioAg VAM contains 7 different myco species, with g. intraradices making up the majority of it.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...3IEQOnzZr9iOTA


The RTI product (Mykos) contains glomus intraradices at 80 spores per CC.

The BioAg VAM contains 104 propagules per gram.

Got this from Dr. Mike:

Glomus mosseae
Glomus mosseae is one of the most researched and widely distributed endomycorrhizal fungi. Numerous studies have determined the importance of G. mosseae

• Increased Nitrogen (N) and phosphorus (P) uptake
• Enzyme activity increases access micro nutrients
• Protects roots
• Stimulates root development
• Improved performance of woody perennials
• Keeps root systems healthy
• Increases fruiting and flowering
• Increases crop yields


Glomus aggregatum
Studies have determined the importance of the endomycorrhizal fungus G. aggregatum:

• Improves plant performance in sandy soils
• Protects plant roots
• Effective root colonization with time release fertilizers
• Tolerant of high fertility levels
• Improves performance of Palms, Fruit trees.

Glomus intraradices
Glomus intraradices is the most widespread and researched endomycorrhizal fungi. Literally thousands of studies have determined the importance of G. intraradices:

• Increases nitrogen and phosphorus uptake
• Increases crop yields
• Protects plant roots
• Can access organic forms of nitrogen and phosphorus
• Improves growth and performance of turf grasses, agricultural crops and nursery stock
• Improves plant resistance to a wide array of soil toxicities
• Drought protection
• Salt tolerance

Glomus etunicatum
Glomus etunicatum is also a widespread and well researched endomycorrhizal fungus. Numerous studies have determined the importance of G. etunicatum:
• Very effective in agricultural soils
• Promotes root health
• Greatly improves drought tolerance
• Increases mineral uptake
• Effective in mine reclamation
• Increases crop yields
• Flowering increases
• Increases enyzme activity
• Improved plant establishment

Glomus deserticola
Glomus deserticola is common in semi arid and arid conditions . Studies have determined the importance of G. deserticola:
• Very effective in reducing drought stress
• Promotes salt tolerance
• Increases P nutrition
• Increases crop yields
• Increases N fixation activity

Glomus clarum
Glomus clarum is distributed widely. Numerous studies have determined the importance of G. clarum:
• Protects against heavy metal toxicity
• Promotes salt tolerance
• Increases P nutrition
• Improved growth of grain crops
• Increases N fixation activity
• Increases crop yields
• Well adapted to a wide variety of plants and soil conditions

Glomus monosporum
Glomus monosporum is widely distributed in mediterranean climates. Studies have determined the importance of G. monosporum:
• Active during periods of low water availability
• Promotes root rottolerance
• Increases P nutrition
• Improved fruit production
• Increases production of vegetable crops


Gigaspora margarita
Gigaspora margarita is common in tropical and subtropical areas. Studies have determined the importance of G. margarita:

• Increases P nutrition
• Improved growth of tropical and subtropical fruits

Paraglomus brasilianum
Paraglomus brasilianum is common in rehabilitation of disturbed soils. Studies have determined the importance of P. brasilianum:

• Resistance to soil toxicity
• Improved root enzyme activity
• Enhances soil remediation

Pisolithus tinctorius
Pisolithus tinctorius is a puffball species that is widespread across an array of diverse habitats and ectomycorrhizal host plants. We use a blend of several ecotypes in our MycoApply® formulations which assures rapid mycorrhizal formations across a variety of environmental conditions. Documented benefits include:

• Rapid early growth of inoculated tree species
• Increases feeder root production
• Tolerant of hot, dry conditions
• Amelioration of heavy metal toxicity
• Inhibits soil pathogen growth and plant infection
• Benefits plants in disturbed environments and acid soils

Rhizopogon
Rhizopogon spp is a truffle species that has numerous special qualities important in a soil inoculation program. The Rhizopogon groups of R. villosulus, R.luteolus, R amylopogon and R fulvigleba targets a wide range of ectomycorrhizal tree and shrub species.

• Promotes soil structure
• Tolerant of cold soil temperatures
• Tolerant of a broad pH range
• High levels of enzyme activity benefiting nutrient and micronutrient acquisition
• Can utilize organic forms of nitrogen
• Protects seedlings against moisture stress
• Promotes successful plant establishment and growth

Scleroderma
Scleroderma is a semi hypogeous genus that is widespread across an array of diverse habitats and ectomycorrhizal host plants. We use two top performing mycorrhizal formulations in our MycoApply products S.cepa and S. citrinum. Documented benefits include:

• Rapid early growth of inoculated tree species
• Improves N and P uptake
• Increases feeder root production
• Prolific rhizomorph producer improves performance in hot, dry conditions
• Amelioration of heavy metal toxicity
• Improves root health
• Improves restoration of degraded soils

Laccaria
Laccaria is a mushroom genus that is also widespread across an array of diverse habitats and host plants. We use two top performing mycorrhizal speciess in our MycoApply products L. laccata and L. bicolor. Documented benefits include:

• Improves survival and growth inoculated tree species
• Improves N and P uptake
• Increases feeder root production
• Protects roots
• Tolerant of high fertility levels
• Decreases drought stress

Based on what I've found out so far (and I think I need to chat with the RTI people and also the Bio Ag folks), this is my understanding.

1. While propagules and spores are different entities, in this instance when Mycorrhizal Applications refers to propagules, they are referencing spores but must call them propagules in order to meet licensing standards in all 50 States. Dr. Mike stated that they do not count propagules that are not spores, because he agreed that they would be largely ineffective.

2. It is very difficult to compare myco products!

My OPINION (CT Guy not MM, just to be clear):

In the case of soil biology and diversity, I feel that having additional myco species beyond just g. intraradices would be beneficial. I would like to see some evidence that these myco species are in direct competition with each other when colonizing a root hair. It seems logical to me that it's more likely the competition with be with other micro-organisms in the soil, and survival and colonization would become more successful with a diversity of myco species, as certain species would be more successful in different environmental conditions, with variables like soil temperature, existing soil biology, moisture levels, and soil structure all having some influence on colonization.

Again, the above paragraph is my OPINION. I'm more than happy to admit that I could be wrong.

Interestingly enough, I have it from a reliable source that all the g. intraradices is coming from Premier in Canada and all these companies are just repackaging and relabeling it.
All products MYKE® PRO mycorhizae

Additionally, more companies are buying from Mycorrhizal Applications and then re-labeling further and marking it up.
Piranha - Piranha Beneficial Fungi Information by Advanced Nutrients

I know for sure the guys above get their myco from Mycorrhizal Applications. (they state on the website that they make it themselves)

There's a liquid product at the first link that has significantly higher spore counts than any of the products we have been discussing.

Here's a good article on mycorrhiza:
http://www.parco1.com/text/mycorrhiz...a Primer.pdf "
End of Eco12’s post



Thankfully there are people like David Doudes who have outlined for growers methods of producing one’s own local mycorrhizal spores/propagules. Here are some links and attached PDF.

Cultivating diversity underground for better yields above

http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/20090806/gw1

ARS Project: DEVELOPMENT OF EFFICIENT AND PRACTICAL METHODS FOR PRODUCING ARBUSCULAR MYCORRHIZAL FUNGI (410449)

Trichoderma
Another consideration if one is contemplating purchasing one of the myco-mixes on the market, is if it contains Trichoderma spores. Because Trichoderma is so much cheaper, the spore count for it in these mixes usually eclipses all the other organisms put together. Unlike endomycorrhizal fungi, Trichoderma requires no root contact to sprout and grow. In addition to this, its favorite food is…..wait for it…..wait for it….other fungi! So you guess what happens if you inoculate your roots with a mix that contains 10,000 spores per gram of Trichoderma and 100 spores per gram total of other fungal species which are slow to sprout.

In my opinion, in most cases, "Yummy" says the Trichoderma as it gobbles down the few sprouting mycorrhizal spores. But, you say, "I get such incredible results when I use ‘Super Ecto Screaming Eagle Myco’. So there!"

Well ya, Trichoderma is a great root/plant protector and there have been studies indicating that it enhances nutrient uptake. Remember the studies indicating it might take a long time for endomycorrhizal to effectively colonize roots? Maybe if you are doing a fast vegetation then kicking into flower Trichoderma is your answer. Maybe it is all that is working effectively in your Screaming Eagle stuff. Maybe it is incredibly cheap to buy elsewhere.

The screaming Eagle people will tell you; Look! Trichoderma is ubiquitous in the soil and grows naturally in conjunction with mycorrhizal spores all over the world. At 10,000 to 100? Freeze dried? Hello.

Am I trying to discourage you from attempting to colonize your cannabis roots with endomycorrhizal fungi? Totally no. I even believe I had success at this by inoculating cuttings and roots as previously mentioned but by also keeping my soil alive and undisturbed (mostly) in between crops. In this way the hyphae and spores remaining in the soil were/are there waiting for the new fresh roots. There are some who now are using companion planting or living mulch, like clover to keep live roots going in the soil at all times. Just be sure you select a plant which is mycorrhizal with the same species of fungi. Not only does this support mycorrhizal networks but keeps the microbial population buzzing along. I wish I had thought of it for my indoor plantation (long gone). I do realize this is not practical for all growers, as it calls for a fairly large volume of soil to preserve it as a living entity.

In reality it appears there are 2 to 5 labs and multiple middlemen wearing lab coats in this world getting extremely rich off everyone’s ignorance over the microbial craze. Wanna spot a phony? If they say they have a product with bennies, microherd or beneficial microorganisms or soluble mycorrhizae, chances are 99% they are full of it.
If they cannot describe the function of the microbes they are selling or cannot explain how nutrients are cycled, even rudimentarily, walk away (or run).

I probably should have referenced stuff as I went along but since I’m not getting grades for this I’ll just lump a bunch of attachments for those of you interested in exploring this fascinating subject in depth. I may hafto do this bit by bit over time.
I’ve at least attached the list of (some) plants which associate with mycorrhizal fungi and Doude’s instructions to begin.

[OR maybe not. Daddyo it would not attach the two PDF documents 　On-farm Production and Utilization of AM Fungus Inoculum.pdf and Mycorrhizal Plant-List-11-08.pdf which I posted on the other threads. I don't know how to move these. Can you do it?]

I should also mention in case it is not readily apparent that endomycorrhizal spores do not sprout and grow in compost tea, as a lot of people seem to believe.

I keep seeing people asking the same questions about mycorrhiza in here, so I'm hoping this well help clear up some of the confusion or at least give people a thread to turn people to.

A couple of basic pointers if I were to try and summarize.

1. You want endo-mycorrhizae for cannabis, not ecto.
2. Application is directly to the roots early in the plants life. No need to spread it throughout your soil (it's too expensive for that).
3. No point in adding it to your compost tea. It will remain dormant until it comes in DIRECT contact with the root hairs of your plant. (there may be some argument to adding it to a compost tea at the end of the brew cycle immediately prior to application, however I prefer to use it as a separate application.
4. High phosphorus or trichoderma will inhibit mycorrhizal colonization/infection. Best not to use them at the same time.
5. If you're re-using your soil or doing no-till, you should have active myco in your soil (one of the main benefits of this approach).

Hope that helps!

~CT

CT Guy said:

4. High phosphorus or trichoderma will inhibit mycorrhizal colonization/infection. Best not to use them at the same time.

Click to expand...

I have some Happy Frog bat guano 0-5-0 that says it has most of those in it. What would be high phosphorus? Is this added just for marketing? Would a product like this be better used in the initial mix and not in tea?

Muchas grácias. -granger

They said:

I have some Happy Frog bat guano 0-5-0 that says it has most of those in it. What would be high phosphorus? Is this added just for marketing? Would a product like this be better used in the initial mix and not in tea?

Click to expand...

I'd have to re-read the research paper on the high P, but I typically associate it with high P synthetic fertilizers.

In terms of most commercial soils, they're putting just enough myco in there to get it on the bag. NOT what I would consider an adequate application. Much better to buy the proper myco product and then apply it directly to your plants roots. Once it's formed that symbiotic relationship, it will grow with the plant.

I don't personally use guanos, but you could top dress with it in small amounts and water it in, or incorporate it into your soil when first mixing it. MM and Spurr have posted some good data to support the idea that cannabis doesn't need nearly as much P as most growers use for flowering, but I'll let one of them chime in on that.

CT Guy said:

5. If you're re-using your soil or doing no-till, you should have active myco in your soil (one of the main benefits of this approach).

~CT

Click to expand...

Keeping that VAM intact.... Thats one of the reasons why I do what I do (no-till).

I was under the impression with tilled or disturbed soil, a major portion of those fungi's would be destroyed. Even with healthy recycled soil.

BTW
Is this a sticky yet?

Although this is not the way I planned to present this information to IC, here it is.

I'd like to point out an error of mine above;

2,000,000 spores/propagules per gram (available as agricultural products

Click to expand...

should be 2,000,000 spores/propagules per litre (available as agricultural products

which is a substantial difference but really irrelevant as it is not going to be used by any of you...I surmise.

To make things a little clearer Glomus Intraradices & Glomus Mosseae do not compete with each other but to my knowledge they are the only endomycorrhizal species known to infect/colonize/benefit cannabis/hemp. Using a mix, seems a little pointless if one can get straight Intraradices, for reasons stated above.

Propagules and spores are exactly the same thing (with honest sellers).

Neo 420 said:

Keeping that VAM intact.... Thats one of the reasons why I do what I do (no-till).

I was under the impression with tilled or disturbed soil, a major portion of those fungi's would be destroyed. Even with healthy recycled soil.

BTW
Is this a sticky yet?

Click to expand...

Endomycorrhizal fungi will only remain active if there are living roots. As soon as you chop a plant, you will be forcing the fungi to die and produce spores. The benefit is that the spores are already present and other fungal networks remain intact.

One could assume/hypothesize that if you replanted immediately which is probably a great idea, that the endomycorrhizal fungi would remain living long enough to infect the new roots.

There are some who hypothesize that keeping a living cover crop accomplishes this.

I like to stick with what has been scientifically illustrated, to be on the safe(r) side when making statements.

There are a number of citations/papers associated with this monologue which I will try to post but don't hold your breath because of the 1MB restriction here.

CT Guy said:

I'd have to re-read the research paper on the high P, but I typically associate it with high P synthetic fertilizers.

In terms of most commercial soils, they're putting just enough myco in there to get it on the bag. NOT what I would consider an adequate application. Much better to buy the proper myco product and then apply it directly to your plants roots. Once it's formed that symbiotic relationship, it will grow with the plant.

I don't personally use guanos, but you could top dress with it in small amounts and water it in, or incorporate it into your soil when first mixing it. MM and Spurr have posted some good data to support the idea that cannabis doesn't need nearly as much P as most growers use for flowering, but I'll let one of them chime in on that.

Click to expand...

Thanks, this is mostly what I was thinking. I'm not buying the P-K thing either. I'm don't use it much it just sits on the shelf. It'll probably just get used in the next couple batches of soil till its gone. Maybe 10% of my soil gets used for cannabis the veggies are really! loving the rest. I'm liking the idea of botanicals and compost more and more everyday. Recycle and keep the soil alive.

Great thread. Thanks for this information, I was just asking about this kind of stuff.

great info...thanks for bringing it here.

Lols @ paying for trich, most mushroom growers would pay to get rid of it!

But having 3 or 4 trichs listed enhances the customer's perception that they're getting a lot more for their money.

Damn shame these same customers don't whip out their nifty smartphones and hit Google - that would kill sales.

Bump

CT Guy said:

...There are apparently some studies showing that it can take up to 6 weeks for the full benefits of infection to be measurable which has led some to conclude that endomycorrhizal fungi is not that useful in the normally fast paced growth 'pattern' of indoor grown cannabis. This is by all means not even close to being 100% factual. I have yet to satisfy myself of this issue one way or the other, having read some studies indicating early infection/colonization. [I will attempt to update the thread later if I learn something relevant to this]...

Click to expand...

that's a long time for indoor cultivation... what kind of time frame is meant by "early infection/colonization" ... roughly?

is there more information about the types of living mulch/cover crops that develop the same mycorrhizal relationships with the two hemp favoring fungi?


great information BTW!
thanks to the both of you.

Coba said:

that's a long time for indoor cultivation... what kind of time frame is meant by "early infection/colonization" ... roughly?

is there more information about the types of living mulch/cover crops that develop the same mycorrhizal relationships with the two hemp favoring fungi?


great information BTW!
thanks to the both of you.

Click to expand...

Hi Coba; That is actually my post so I'll address this. [This thread is part of a sticky I wrote for another site and I copied one of CT Guy's posts into it which covered the range of commercial mycorrhizal fungi.]

Later on in the thread I addressed the time of infection issue. I discovered two important and old studies showing quite a rapid infection rate of Glomus Mossaea which indicates Glomus Intraradices should have the same infection rate. One study showed a time as short as 5 days for infection to be observable but easily observable at 6 days. The other I believe was 14 days on average.

This (potentially) blows away the information posted a year or so ago on this forum.

Unfortunately, these PDFs are too large to upload onto this forum. I will attempt to locate some links. I'm too lazy to type out the titles right now and the PDF has a copy inhibiter.

Clover is mycorrhizal with intraradices, however one must weigh out the pros & cons involved with supporting a companion plant. Some pull it off very nicely. I believe MisGreenDreamz showed us such a garden some time ago.

I have not read any actual studies that indicate Endomycorrhizal fungi transfers from one host to another but it makes logical sense.

i wonder would these be more useable for special situations, say a keeping longtime mother plant or some crazy tropical sativa that takes 6 months to flower.

unthing said:

i wonder would these be more useable for special situations, say a keeping longtime mother plant or some crazy tropical sativa that takes 6 months to flower.

Click to expand...

"I discovered two important and old studies showing quite a rapid infection rate of Glomus Mossaea which indicates Glomus Intraradices should have the same infection rate. One study showed a time as short as 5 days for infection to be observable but easily observable at 6 days. The other I believe was 14 days on average."


why you say that unthing?

oh i'm just quessing. to build proper networks or something?

timely thread. I own a grow shop and thought I knew more than I did lol. thank goodness for icmag!

do you think that rooted clones would benefit from a folier spray of bioag vam on the roots on their way to the soil? would this work?

I am going to undersow some dutch white clover in my buckets after 2 weeks in veg, but only in a few containers. then when plants are finished, I will cut them out as if I was transplanting them, and just plunk down the next transplant into the whole.

props on this thread!