Persistent leaf issue...A phenotype trait or other?

ItsGrowTime · May 23, 2007

Hey all

First post in the Infirmary in awhile but this leaf issue keeps coming up in my crops and I was hoping someone has seen it before and has an idea about what it is.
These are 3rd generation clones of a Nirvana NL#5xBigBud (NLxBB) pheno I am working with. This issue has shown up in both fence post aero/nft and basic DWC (no res, no changes). Each leaf is from a different plant and each plant is currently at varying ppm at .5 conversion (600-1000ppm) and pH (all within 5.6-6.0). It seems like no matter what, I get this leaf issue in some form from this mother! Nutes are Floranova Bloom with Hydroguard, Hygrozyme, Fulvic, Cal-Mag Plus, PK booster. I sparingly use LK and Floralicious Bloom. Just so you know I dont think the nutes have anything to do with it except *maybe* the Cal-Mag. Ive added and subtracted stuff and its still showing up. Im starting to think this is just a phenotype issue thats not fixable. Regardless Im open to any thoughts. Btw, leaves like this are only about 10% of total leaf mass but it seems to occur only in direct light. No lower leaves do this. The bottom line is that varying plants from same mother with varying conditions all show this same pattern.

All 3 leaves lined up. From diff. plants but same mother.

Individual leaves in advancing stages. The one side of the point thing kinda bugs me. Most of the leaves show that on ONLY one side of the vein. The total leaf issue is fairly rare.

Any thoughts are appreciated. I have a big grow with clones in the works and I really want to figure out what this is.

Growdoc · May 23, 2007

Not enough "Mg", or Magnesium...

The more 'N' you feed the more 'Mg' you need, but do becareful...

GrowDoc

Core · May 23, 2007

just my thought but i think you have a hemp mozaik virus...... :chin:

you wonder why i think this ....i'l add a topic i found on some dutch forums but it needs 2 be translated...

i had the same issue my verry first run from clones i bought in holland from a clonefarmer....i already dugg this info up so i'l try and share it with you folks so you can see if its possible or not.....

bbl :wave:

Core · May 23, 2007

first in dutch.....

first in dutch.....

i'l add the translation after this...

Core said:
well GCG my first source woz a such site called wietforum.nl...they had a topic running over that virus...i still could find it but i'm shure your not able to read it...

[quote name='stijlloos' date='29 May 2006, 11:30 ' post='152109']
Herkenning

Op de jongste blaadjes vindt je kringvormige geelgroene vlekjes, kringvormige figuren en slingerende lijnen. Op de oudere bladeren komt geel mozaiek voor. Het blad verkleurt in korte tijd geel. Soms gebeurt dit zonder dat symptomen van het virus zichtbaar waren.

Verspreiding

Een aantasting door mozaiekvirus treedt vooral 's zomers en in de herfst op wanneer veel gevleugelde bladluizen voorkomen. Bladluizen brengen het virus zeer makkelijk over. Bij werkzaamheden in het gewas kan de mens het virus in geringe mate verspreiden. Een verspreiding via zaad of grond is niet mogelijk. Het virus heeft veel dragers, waaronder sla en onkruiden. Hierin kan het virus overblijven. Het virus komt ook voor in diverse andere planten zoals, tabaksplanten, komkommers, tomaten enz... Kruisbesmetting is mogelijk (hennep naar tomaat en visa-versa).

Op het moment dat het virus eenmaal in de plant zit is het er niet meer uit te halen, klonen van deze plant zullen dus het virus ook met zich meedragen.

Effecten op de plant

De effecten op de plant zijn zeer divers, de plant zal nooit zijn volle kracht kunnen benutten omdat door de staat van de bladeren minder fotosynthese kan geschieden. Het mozaiekvirus bestaat uit kleine staafjes van ongeveer 700 nanometer lang. Het virus behoort tot de groep van potyvirussen.
De plant zal nooit een topper kunnen worden dat is Ã©Ã©n ding dat vast staat, overal zal de plant enigszins in achter blijven.

Komkommer met Mozaiekvirus

Tomaat met Mozaiekvirus

Bestrijding

Zoals al eerder gezegd een oplossing is er niet als het er eenmaal in zit gaat het niet meer weg. Wel zijn de omgevingsfactoren van belang, een plant die constant een omgevingstemperatuur van 21 graden Celcius of hoger krijg zal minder last hebben van het virus. Je temperatuur op 21+ houden is dus een must.

Voorkomen

Allereerst zorg voor een schone ruimte, zorg dat je zo min mogelijk beestjes in je ruimte kan krijgen en was je handen voordat je aan je planten zit. Als het goed is deed je dit al

Als jou stekkenboer dit virus in zijn moederplanten heeft is er 99% kans dat jij het ook binnen krijg. In principe is bij een stek al te zien of dit virus aanwezig is, goed opletten dus... Heeft de plant bepaalde rare kenmerken gewoon weigeren en naar een ander gaan.

Om het voor een groot deel uit te sluiten zal je een goede stekkenboer moeten vinden of zelf dit proces in handen nemen. Daarnaast kan je ook kweken uit zaad dan is de kans minimiem dat je dit virus binnenkrijgt.

Opbrengst

De grote vraag is natuurlijk kost het mij opbrengt. Het antwoord hierop is JA
Omdat je plant een virus heeft, minder blad aanmaakt enz, zal deze ook minder opleveren. Als jij de temperatuur op 21+ houdt valt de schade nog wel mee, maar buitenplanten zullen hier veel meer last van hebben omdat het is ons koude landje veel te weinig 21 graden of warmer is.

De (bijzondere) geschiedenis van het tabaksmozaiekvirus (kort TMV)

TMV is het eerste virus dat aangetoond is. Het bestaan van het virus is in 1889 bevestigd toen een onderzoeker de aarde waar een besmette plant in stond ging stereliseren, na de sterilisatie bleven de planten in die aarde ziek worden. BacteriÃ«n bestaan namelijk uit eiwitten die bij een temperatuur van 100+ graden stollen hierdoor kwam men tot de conclusie dat het niet een bacterie was die de ziekte veroorzaakte. Dat het een virus was wist men nu nog niet, alleen dat het iets anders dan bacteriÃ«n waren.

Foto
In 1946 is de nobelprijs voor de scheikunde uitgerijkt aan de persoon die voor het eerts ooit een virus zichtbaar maakte, dit virus was TMV (zie foto). Door de grote hoeveelheden van het virus in een geÃ¯nfecteerde plant en het feit dat het niet schadelijk voor mens en dier was maakten dit virus idiaal voor gebruik voor verder onderzoek naar virussen.

Over de biologie van TMV

Biologen streven ernaar alles in te delen in verschillende categoriÃ«n, ook bij virussen probeert men ze bij een bepaalde categorie onder te brengen. Alle vormen van het Tabaksmozaiekvirus vallen onder de categorie van de Potyvirussen deze indeling is gemaakt op basis van de symtomen en het voorkomen van dit virus. Het voorkomen, alleen in planten en het primair gevolg is een groei verstoring bij de cellen van de plant, dit geld voor alle Potyvirussen.

TMV is een ssRNA virus, dat wil zeggen single strain RNA virus. Een enkelstrengs virus waar de bouwplaat van op een enkel strengs RNA streng is vastgelegd.

->Het word nu ineens allemaal heel ingewikkeld aaight, even in slowmotion: Je kent DNA wel? Die grote databank in die trapvorm, RNA is een gedeeltelijk kopie van een stukje DNA waarmee de informatie van DNA omgezet word in een opdracht voor de cel. Kort samengevat dan <-

Omdat het RNAvirus een stukje RNA in een beschermend omhulseltje is geeft het wanneer het een cel binnen is meteen opdracht nieuwe virussen te produceren. Zo veranderd de cel in een heuse virus fabriek de verspreiding van het virus in de plant is dus niet afhankelijk van celdelingen. Omdat de cellen zo druk zijn met de productie van virussen neemt de celdeling in de geÃ¯nfecteerde planten sterk af en krijgen geÃ¯nfecteerde delen dus groei en, in ons geval vooral belangerijk, ook tijdens de bloei een achterstand en sneller tekorten.

Andere vormen

Het virus heeft een aantal broertjes, die allemaal hun eigen symptomen veroorzaken, vaak is het bij ons alleen het TMV virus waar we last van hebben, andere vormen komen echter ook voor helaas ook bij onze liefjes, de vormen staan hieronder met de uiterlijk kenmerken erbij..

Tobacco mosaic virus - 151, Tobamo / tabaksmozaiekvirus -> De ons bekende soort, kromme bladeren en het duidelijke rare patroon op de bladen.

Tobacco leaf curl virus-Begomo (Geminiviridae) / tabakskrulbladvirus -> Veroorzaakt geen verkleuringen alleen gekrulde bladeren door de verminderde celdeling in de plant.

Tobacco mild green mosaic virus - 351, Tobamo / tabaksbontvirus -> Veroorzaakt vlekken op de bladeren en licht kromme bladeren en niet de duidelijke mozaiek tekening.

Met dank aan Wezeloos, Mad en wazzup voor de foto's en dank aan Snowy voor de onderste lap tekst...

Core · May 23, 2007

english translation without pics...

english translation without pics...

i'l try and do the translation as correct as i can..... :moon:

On the youngest leaves you'll find yellow/green circled shape spots,cirlcle shaped figures and waving lines.
Older leaves shows yellow mozaïk like figures.Leaves will yellow in a short time,sometimes this happens when sympthoms dont show.

Spreading

A infection of mozaïkvirus occeurs mostly in the summer or in the fall,when winged bugs like leave louse appear.
Leave louse transmit the virus verry easy.While working in the garden men can transmit in some small occaisions.Spreading tru seed or soil is not possible.
The virus has many carryers,among them are salad and garden weeds,in these the virus can survive,the virus also acceurs in other^plants like tobaccoplants,tomatoes,cucumbers,ect..crosscontamination is possible..(cannabis infecting tomato and vise versa)
The moment the plant has been infected there is no cure for it....clones of this plant will also carry this virus..

Effects on the plant

The effect on the plant are verry divers,the plant will never be able 2 use its full potential because the state of the leave wont permit fotosynthese as good as on a healty leave.
The virus exists out of small rods of about 700 nanometer long.the virus belong 2 the group of potyvirusses.the plant will never be a topper,1 thing is surten the plant will show problems and will stay a back of any other.

Komkommer met Mozaiekvirus

Tomaat met Mozaiekvirus[/left]

How 2 battle it..
As written before there is no cure for this virus?once the plant has it its not removeable.Inviromentfactors are importand though.A plant that has a stable surroundingstemperatur of 21C°+ wont have as much problem as other way around..so keeping the Temp above 21C° is a must

i'll add second part in a few and in a other post...

Core · May 23, 2007

second part...

second part...

Prevention
First of all you need 2 provide a clean room,be shure and try 2 repel all bugs inside a room.
And always wash your hands before toutching the plants....you should have done it by now...
if your clonefarmer's plants carry this virus is there 99% chance you'll also get it in your room.in princible you already can see i on a clone when the plant has the infection...so watch out carefully.if a plant shows some odd charicaristics just refuse and go somewhere else.

you can ofcaurse take some precautions and take cloningmatters into your own hands...next 2 that growing from seeds will lower the threath of you getting it in the room.

Will it Cost Me
Will it cost me?...the answer 2 this is YES it will cost ya..because your plant has a virus ,does't make as much leave ,slows the fotosynthese ect...this plant wont be able 2 produce as much as a healthy 1.
if you keep it above 21C° damage will be smaller but for outside plants they will have more damage bacause our country has not as high temps over 21C° or higher.

History of the tobaccovirus (in short ...TMV)
TMW is the first virus that has been proven.The existance of the virus is confirmed in 1889,when a researcher began 2 sterillise the soil with a infected plant in it,after the sterillisation plants still became sick in that same soil.bacteria namely exist out of eggwhite that begins 2 harden when if reaches 100C°+...Because of this they came 2 the conclusion that bacteria where not the cause of this sickness.@ that time they probably did't know it woz a virus ...they just knew it woz't bacteria becoz of the sterillisation.

Foto

In 1946 the nobelprize woz awarde for chemestry...for the person that made a virus visible for the first time,this woz TMV..(see pic)
Because of the many quantities of the viruses and because it woz't dangerous 2 humans or animals this virus woz ideal for further examination for virusses.

Biolegie of TMV
biologistes try to marke everything is diffrent catagories,they also try 2 catagories these virusses in separate catagories.All forms of tobaccovirus fall under the name Potyvirusses...this catagorie is made on base of sympthoms and the presents of the virus.
The presents of the virus,only in plants and the primearie consecuence is grow inhibited by the cells of the plant,this only goes for Potyvirusses.

TMV is a ssRNA virus,that means a sigle strain RNA virus.with its buildingblocks documented on 1 single RNA strain.

it all get verry complicated now....in slowmotion....you know DNA right?that big database in stairform,RNA is a small copie of a piece of DNA that transforms the information into a assingment for the cell...(in short that is)

When a RNA virus penetrates the cell it immediatly starts 2 reproduce new viruses in the cell,this allows the cell 2 be infected.the spreading of the virus does not depend on cellformation.
Cells will be buisy producing viruses and thus wont be procucing as much cells and slow down its cell formation in its infected sections.so in our case veg and flower will quickly show some shortages.

Other shapes
the virus does have some brothers,they all causes there own sympthoms.
Its not only the TMV virus we have trouble with...other forms do occour with our girls...downhere other forms and other outer charicaristics are written...

1.Tobacco mosaic virus - 151, Tobamo ->our best know species,bended/curld leaves and obvious pattern on the leaves.....ime this kind shows more yellow on the leaves :2cents:

2.Tobacco leaf curl virus-Begomo (Geminiviridae) -> does't show discolorments only curld/bended leaves because of lesser celldevelopment in the plant.

3.Tobacco mild green mosaic virus - 351, Tobamo -> causes spots on leaves leaves slightly curld and not so obvious mozaïk patterns.

OMFG i made it :yoinks:

...i'l add some of my own exp on this matter....i've had the pleaseaure of seeing 2 kinds of this virus...the Tobacco mozaik virus and the mild green mozaik virus ....well atleast i think so... i do have the proof on this matter.... :chin:

i have 1 now in the garden ..seperate ofcause...take a look...

i also wanne add that i think its transferable tru handling diffrent plants...but that i'm not shure of...
LMAO this sounds like Si-Fi and i hope i did't make you scared or something.....just sharing my thoughts and opinions...

Guest · May 23, 2007

Great info Core. It only makes sense that plants like cannabis would carry a virus as well. Hope I don't run across this stuff! :yoinks:

Blackvelvet · May 23, 2007

Core said:
just my thought but i think you have a hemp mozaik virus......

Don't add cal mag plus or pk booster to floranova bloom.

Core · May 23, 2007

Blackvelvet said:

at least my opinions are founded Boronboy..... l

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_mosaic_virus
http://biotechbuddy.googlepages.com/tmv.html
http://www.dpvweb.net/dpv/showdpv.php?dpvno=370
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/horticulture/DG1168.html

proof it exists is kicking you in the face...btw where't you Banned?....

Stoned2Death said:
Great info Core. It only makes sense that plants like cannabis would carry a virus as well. Hope I don't run across this stuff!

thanks Stoned it does exist you know....Nway i'll leave it 2 the threadmaker 2 decide if its sound advise in this situation :wave:

ItsGrowTime · May 23, 2007

Wow Core thanks for the info. I know that must have been a pain in the ass to translate so I do appreciate it a lot. R+

Those first pictures do seem to look about the same as the leaf issue and since it does follow the clones, regardless of conditions, I think you may be right about it being the virus. The other pictures dont really follow but those first few sure do. Fortunately, it hasnt seemed to have too much of an effect on the plants since they still yield pretty well (3 to 4oz) but it makes me wonder what I *could* be getting. Well, I think Ill go ahead and finish off the clone run I planned, scrub the room down, then start some new virus-free seeds. I think Ill go with JLP's Mississippi Mud

EDIT: blackvelvet, thanks for your thoughts but even before I posted this thread I was 99% sure it wasnt a nute issue and now that was confirmed.

screwdriver · May 23, 2007

Here is my example.
I'm is soil, don't know ph or nute ratio. This is a cutting of a cutting of the mother and the fourth gen is vegging and healthy.
This came up in week five of flower.

In my case, I thought it could be a ph problem or Mg. I top dressed with lime and epsom salt. For as late as it is (I only got 2 more weeks) I don't know if any thing will help.
I also ran across the virus thing...what are the odds that she would get a virus?
It pops up so late in flower for me and while in veg it looks healthy. I also really didn't see any type of stunting or bad looking bud on my girl.
I just think its missing something...I'll try to catch it next time with more Mg or breakdown and get a good meter. Mine reads everthing as 6.8
Good luck

screwdriver · May 23, 2007

Sorry...she is supposed to be Blueberry x N.L.

Core · May 23, 2007

well you need 2 pull your own conclusions my friend......i just stated the fact that it exists....how much more proof do you want...if its already the fourt generation that is shiowing this.?...is kinda similar that ItsGrowTime is saying about his 3th generation clones...

ItsGrowTime · May 24, 2007

Yes! The issue ONLY appears in middle to late flower! I have a vegging mother thats 3 feet plus and her leaves are PERFECT but I just know as soon as I hit 12/12 those leaves will start popping up. Weird!

Screwdriver, are you SURE you have NLxBlueberry and not NLxBigBud? The similarities seem too close to be coincidence....

screwdriver · May 24, 2007

I ordered Blueberry x NL by Dr. Atomic (trying to support up north). What I got ??????
I didn't notice this on the mother, I reuse soil, small grow and I give it what I think it needs. My main thought on a virus was the pics of the fruit and how the fruit was affected. My bud didn't look stunted or abnormal just the fan leaves.
If its a virus, which I haven't discounted, it hasn't done anything more noticable than turn a few fan leaves yellow on one side.

ItsGrowTime · May 24, 2007

^^^^^Exactly my thoughts. It doesnt seem to have affected the buds much, if at all, but Ill wait until day 60 before I can say for sure, since they really start packing it on right about now. The last crop didnt appear affected either.

Maybe the virus doesnt go as haywire in NL (and crosses) as it does other strains? That could explain the longevity of the Northern Lights strain actually. Mold and disease resistance?

screwdriver · May 25, 2007

I broke down and bought some ph stuff. Used the first bit of the runoff from soil and tested at 6.6
Here's the main cola. Day 48. Bud looks healthy. The leaf pictured in above post came from just above the large leaf on left side of cola.

From a site in the middle:

ItsGrowTime · May 25, 2007

That top cola is lookin large man. I have a fatass one just liike that too. You sure your growing NLxBlueberry? Looks an awful lot like my Nirvana NLxBB colas.

Scientist · May 25, 2007

Hm this is a real headscratcher. Some pics show symptoms of potassium def. maybe due to too much N or more likely high Na concentration in the soil. The pic with the fat bud!!, the leaf with necrotic spots and chlorosis most visable > K def.The leaf curling and half colored leaves reminds me of photoperiod stress. As for the spaulting sorta thing i dunno. I had a Bog LSD that did the same thing week two or three of veg, then went away. Maybe its the illusive virus! good luck mang, fat bud!

Scientist · May 25, 2007

Here's that lsd with weirdness. Dunno if it was virus related.

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