THC Acetate

Gray Wolf · Aug 10, 2010

Hee, hee, hee………

Well, we couldn’t stands it no more and just had to make some Cannabinoid Acetate to check it out before spending the money for an inert atmosphere chamber as recommended by D Gold in Cannabis Alchemy. We instead conducted the experiment in an open field, where everything went smoothly.

We decided to start small, so we used 2 grams of BHO. We acetalized it by dissolving the BHO in Everclear, adding Acetic Anhydride, and reflux cooking using a boiling flask and an Alhin condenser to reflux.

We neutralized with Sodium Hydroxide and after filtering, added water, table salt, and hexane, before separating out the hexane and acetate, using a separatory funnel. After evaporating off the Hexane, we washed with ethanol and voile!

Good stuff! Rapid pain relief and good head effect! Ahrroooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!1

Hashmasta-Kut · Aug 10, 2010

is it much different in effect than your starting product tho, you dont mention that, which is the crux of the biscuit, is it not?

Gray Wolf · Aug 10, 2010

Hashmasta-Kut said:
is it much different in effect than your starting product tho, you dont mention that, which is the crux of the biscuit, is it not?

Good point bro! The starting product was mixed trim and popcorn, which was respectable when vaporized.

The result was more than respectable and was an attention getter for the two of us high tolerance lab rats doing the testing yesterday.

We didn't test it Sunday, because the hexane was still purging. It was actually still not fully purged when we tested it, and today I will modify the process to include another wash using 190 proof to pick up the residual.

Gold represents it as 3X potency, which the two of us with our high tolerance were unable to establish, but I will put it out for panel testing to get more opinions.

Most noticeable to me was the strong head effect, because the pain just went away, which the straight oil also did admirably well without further processing.

More after I have run it by some low tolerance panel members to see those effects. My impression at this point is favorable enough that I will be making a larger batch for more extensive testing. Based on current data, I predict a highly postive response.

Shred42O · Aug 10, 2010

Couldn't you just use more of the orginal product and get the same effect as using less of a refined one

Gray Wolf · Aug 10, 2010

Shred42O said:
Couldn't you just use more of the orginal product and get the same effect as using less of a refined one

In three words, my best prediction is, "No f-----g way."

I don't get high anymore and can only infer head effect by the activity, but it was noticeably higher with the acetate than it was with the base oil.

Continuing to ingest more and more oil doesn't produce more mental activity for me, it either gives me a head ache, or puts me to sleep, depending on the oil. I may or may not lose my short term memory and get stupid in the process.

If you don't degrade it during extraction, the original plant genetics pretty well circumscribes the effects and it doesn't matter how much oil you ingest, you are limited in effect.

Shred42O · Aug 10, 2010

Cool very intresting stuff

G.O. Joe · Aug 11, 2010

D. Gold bases this on work from the 40's that I'm sure was done well, but is what it is and not more. Things are not so black and white; others have said that it is less potent, including some who have also claimed to have made it.

This is from 1945, at the end of the research by this Adams group, where potency is shown as 2X. You can see a table here.
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja01225a040
Neither it nor the THC it came from was pure.

This potency is based on the motor coordination of dogs.

If I had some acetic anhydride I could find out for myself, but it's not easy to obtain in the US for most people since it is regulated.

Mechoulam wrote a definitive book in 1973 (Marijuana), which this is from:

Chapter 2 - Structure Activity Relationships
Table V - Activity of delta-1 and delta-6-THC Derivatives and Related Materials.
This table gives the dosage necessary to produce certain observable effects in rhesus monkeys: - indicates no change; +-, tranquility; +, drowsiness,decreased motor activity,occasional partial ptosis,occasional head drop; ++, stupor, ataxia, full ptosis, suppresion of motor activity, typical crouched position ("thinker position") for up to three hours, presence of reaction to external sensorial stimuli; +++, severe stupor and ataxia, full ptosis, immobility, "thinker position" lasting for more than 3 hours and absence of reaction to external stimuli.

Dose (mg/kg) Activity

(-)-delta1-THC
0.05 +
0.1 ++
0.25 ++
0.5 +++

delta1-THC acetate
0.2 +-
0.5 +
1.0 ++

(-)-delta6-THC
0.1 +-
0.25 +
0.5-0.9 ++
1.0-2.0 +++

delta6-THC acetate
0.2 -
0.5 +
1.0 ++
5.0 +++

Gray Wolf · Aug 11, 2010

G.O. Joe said:
D. Gold bases this on work from the 40's that I'm sure was done well, but is what it is and not more. Things are not so black and white; others have said that it is less potent, including some who have also claimed to have made it.

This is from 1945, at the end of the research by this Adams group, where potency is shown as 2X. You can see a table here.
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja01225a040
Neither it nor the THC it came from was pure.

This potency is based on the motor coordination of dogs.

If I had some acetic anhydride I could find out for myself, but it's not easy to obtain in the US for most people since it is regulated.

Mechoulam wrote a definitive book in 1973 (Marijuana), which this is from:

Chapter 2 - Structure Activity Relationships
Table V - Activity of delta-1 and delta-6-THC Derivatives and Related Materials.
This table gives the dosage necessary to produce certain observable effects in rhesus monkeys: - indicates no change; +-, tranquility; +, drowsiness,decreased motor activity,occasional partial ptosis,occasional head drop; ++, stupor, ataxia, full ptosis, suppresion of motor activity, typical crouched position ("thinker position") for up to three hours, presence of reaction to external sensorial stimuli; +++, severe stupor and ataxia, full ptosis, immobility, "thinker position" lasting for more than 3 hours and absence of reaction to external stimuli.

Dose (mg/kg) Activity

(-)-delta1-THC
0.05 +
0.1 ++
0.25 ++
0.5 +++

delta1-THC acetate
0.2 +-
0.5 +
1.0 ++

(-)-delta6-THC
0.1 +-
0.25 +
0.5-0.9 ++
1.0-2.0 +++

delta6-THC acetate
0.2 -
0.5 +
1.0 ++
5.0 +++

Thanks for the supporting data Joe! Always good to find kindred mad scientists!

D. Gold was also off on the proportions, based on the reaction when we added more water after the reaction was ostensibly complete. As many of ya’ll already know, acetic anhydride is basically vinegar with all the water removed, and it reacts violently in the presence of water. Such a reaction at that point in the process suggests an excess of un-reacted acetic anhydride. More on that subject after we count moles.

We have yet to have a high pressure liquid chromatograph at our disposal, but I got in four more volunteer panel tests yesterday, all of which not only agree with my assessment that the potency was increased, but added some perspective to the degree.

In short, all reported acceleration in speed and intensity of effect. Two used the word, “Wow”, as their first descriptive word, based primarily on head effect, but all uniformly reported an almost immediate relief of the symptoms that qualified them for MMJ.

Without the instrumentation, any attempts at quantification are anecdotal, but whether it is 2 or 3X, it is definitely a marked improvement.

Don’t know what to tell you about obtaining acetic anhydride bro, other than it appears to be more something that draws attention to you when you purchase it, as opposed to actually being seriously regulated for industrial and research use. Besides also being used in the manufacture of Heroin from Morphine, it is also used to make Aspirin.

So far purchasing the chemicals that we require for medical experimentation from the local science supply store hasn’t been an issue, through our legitimate business accounts, and we don’t use any of them for illegitimate purposes, so as to draw the wrath of folks that can take that privilege away or lock us up.

As just a tongue in cheek thought though, Acetic Anhydride is highly reactive and not something to take lightly, as a review of the MSDS will clearly illustrate. It and other reactive chemicals will always and should always have someone paying attention to the qualifications of who is buying it.

If any of ya’ll decide to try this at home, might I highly recommend that you please first take the time to learn safe lab techniques?

ElRubio · Aug 11, 2010

Cool thread and experiment GrayWolf...

i dont have the products and knowledge needed to management this issue, but looks killer...

Thanx for share mate! Enjoy it! :thank you:

dingbat · Aug 11, 2010

I read about this in Cannibis Alchemy. Always wanted to try it, but just like ElRubio i dont have the products or the knowledge hehe.
Have you guys compared THC Acetate to Budder for potency? That would be really interesting.

Gray Wolf · Aug 11, 2010

dingbat said:
I read about this in Cannibis Alchemy. Always wanted to try it, but just like ElRubio i dont have the products or the knowledge hehe.
Have you guys compared THC Acetate to Budder for potency? That would be really interesting.

Unless there is another budder out there, I infer that you are talking about cannabis oil that has been whipped over low heat.

If that is the case, the acetate is more potent than the budder that I've made or sampled, but I'm not a resident expert on any of the concentrates.

dingbat · Aug 12, 2010

budder is not just whipped oil. If purged correctly it should be mostly cannibinoids and a very small percentage of water and other contaminants. theres an article about the budder that the budder king makes in bc somewhere online. Most cannibis oils are around half cannibinoids and half water/contaminants i believe. if made properly budder should be quite potent, enough to notice a huge difference between it and honey oil. still dont know if it would be as intense as the acetate. It would be interesting to see budder made into acetate.
i heard thc acetate is considered a class A narcotic. like heroin :S. I still wanna try it though

Gray Wolf · Aug 12, 2010

dingbat said:
budder is not just whipped oil. If purged correctly it should be mostly cannibinoids and a very small percentage of water and other contaminants. theres an article about the budder that the budder king makes in bc somewhere online. Most cannibis oils are around half cannibinoids and half water/contaminants i believe. if made properly budder should be quite potent, enough to notice a huge difference between it and honey oil. still dont know if it would be as intense as the acetate. It would be interesting to see budder made into acetate.
i heard thc acetate is considered a class A narcotic. like heroin :S. I still wanna try it though

Maybe we should first define oil. My oil is already an absolute without water and has minimal contaminants. I could tell no difference in the potency between it and the budder it produced, other than the handy packaging.

While light years from being an expert, I have converted concrete and oleoresin extracts to absolutes, as well as decarboxylated, isomerized, and acetalized oil at one time or another. My hat is off to Budder King if he has made budder that is more potent than any of those processes and invite his enlightening input.

Without giving away the farm, might you share some insight Budder King, on how you improved the potency from the plant genetics without any of the above processing?

ElRubio · Aug 12, 2010

hey all:
interesting input, im with you in that point Gray Wolf.

I have "buddered" a lot of bho samples last months (since Grassman show me the process), getting a substance with the same thc-cannabinoids profile as the bho, but with a different flavor imho.
i´ve heard a lot of things about budder (aka wax), but i suspect there is a lot of hype out there.

Best vibes and thanx all for the info!!

Hashmasta-Kut · Aug 12, 2010

Gray Wolf said:
. My hat is off to Budder King if he has made budder that is more potent than any of those processes and invite his enlightening input.

Without giving away the farm, might you share some insight Budder King, on how you improved the potency from the plant genetics without any of the above processing?

its all bull, its just a really good strain used, makes people think his budder is some magic unobtainium. budder imo, is oil that has gone thrrough the same phase change as unpasteurized honey, its just crystallized. it loses terpenes much more rapidly once it has changed state.

ElRubio · Aug 12, 2010

totally agree, except:

Hashmasta-Kut said:
it loses terpenes much more rapidly once it has changed state.

i note the budder more sweet and smooth than the bho i got it. i dont know why.^`*´^?!

Sorry GW for offtopic, maybe we should open a new thread? :thank you:

buddyJesus · Aug 12, 2010

Shred42O said:
Couldn't you just use more of the orginal product and get the same effect as using less of a refined one

adding the acetate group increases mass of the oil by 25 percent. even if it sells for same price(it won't!) you get to sell more weight. think of it as cutting it but instead of being weaker it much stronger.

Gray Wolf · Aug 12, 2010

ElRubio said:
totally agree, except:

i note the budder more sweet and smooth than the bho i got it. i dont know why.^`*´^?!

Sorry GW for offtopic, maybe we should open a new thread?

Not a problem and I suspect that the budder tastes better to you, because not all terpenoids and flavoids are tasty in high concentration.

Because they are aromatics, they are volitile and vaporize significantly below their boiling points.

The distinctive flowering aromas are those aromatics being released even at ambient.

Heating and stirring air into the oil releases more of these agents, thus toning down their pungency, as well as oxidizing more of all the essential oils present.

That would also alter the flavor and ostensibly add to the sedative effect with higher CBNs.

ElRubio · Aug 12, 2010

it sounds very reasonable... :tiphat:

In that case, we must continue testing and smoking oil and budder without stopping to clarify bout the differences hehe :thank you:

dingbat · Aug 12, 2010

agreed!

THC Acetate

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.

Attachments

honey oil addict

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.

Member

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.

Member

Well-known member

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.

Active member

Member

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.

Member

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.

Active member

honey oil addict

Active member

Member

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.

Active member

Member