4x4 organic soil tray

[brp4e]

Hey ICmag, I have a question about an organic setup I was thinking about doing..

Right now I'm thinking of building a 4x4 tray out of wood and poly and having a drainage layer comprised of eggcrate sitting on top of roughly 1-2" tall pvc fittings with a drain built in the bottom for excess water to flow out. There will be landscape fabric on top of the eggcrate. For those of you who don't know what eggcrate is.. It's white plastic http://www.collins-consulting.org/orchids/eggCrate.jpg

I'd be filling it with LC's soiless mix #2 and fertilizing it with his guano/kelp recipe #3 http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=53792

After I finish the first grow would I be able to add in worms (thinking of using red wriggler) so that they can break down left over organic matter from the plants and reuse the soil? They'd also be re amending the soil with worm castings which are added as part of the soil mix.

Id be doing continuous rounds of lollipopped clones in a sea of green setup.

From what I can tell all the nutrients are supplied from the teas so I can't see why any problems would arise from reusing the soil. I also know that the worms would also need additional food so I was thinking after each grow I'd grind up the left over leaves and mix that into the soil so the worms will have food.

Anyways thanks for taking the time to read, and I'll be looking forward to all of your replies!

 

[jerry111165]

While kelp does contain everything needed for growth, I'd personally have a hard time using it as my only source of nutrition (kelp teas). I think you'd be missing out on so much that could be added and used - neem, alfalfa, crab et al. Why limit your self with a soil less recipe? I am unfamiliar with this particular recipe, But "soilless" tells me that there's no compost or castings in it either?

Not putting it down - it's better than bottled nutes, but I just don't get it.

J

 

[SeaMaiden]

Hey ICmag, I have a question about an organic setup I was thinking about doing..

Right now I'm thinking of building a 4x4 tray out of wood and poly and having a drainage layer comprised of eggcrate sitting on top of roughly 1-2" tall pvc fittings with a drain built in the bottom for excess water to flow out. There will be landscape fabric on top of the eggcrate. For those of you who don't know what eggcrate is.. It's white plastic http://www.collins-consulting.org/orchids/eggCrate.jpg

So, basically you'd be creating a plenum under the soil column... except you're not going to be using soil..?

I'd be filling it with LC's soiless mix #2 and fertilizing it with his guano/kelp recipe #3 https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=53792

I think you may need a bit more for feeding a well rounded 'diet' than kelp and guano, but it's a fantastic start, especially if the soil (media) itself is already well-amended. Keep in mind that various rock dusts have different break-down times, so some things you amend now won't be available to the plants for days, weeks, months or in some cases a couple of years (soft rock phosphate, for example).

After I finish the first grow would I be able to add in worms (thinking of using red wriggler) so that they can break down left over organic matter from the plants and reuse the soil? They'd also be re amending the soil with worm castings which are added as part of the soil mix.

I suggest starting with actual soil, then, and put the worms in from the get go. I suggest buying a yard of good quality topsoil, organic certified if you can get it and if they give you a soil report then even better (that's why my guy upcountry has/does). Then lighten that soil up using stuff like rice hulls, perhaps some peat and/or coir (careful with the amount of coir, don't go too high because then you're in new territory as far as feeding goes).

Id be doing continuous rounds of lollipopped clones in a sea of green setup.

From what I can tell all the nutrients are supplied from the teas so I can't see why any problems would arise from reusing the soil. I also know that the worms would also need additional food so I was thinking after each grow I'd grind up the left over leaves and mix that into the soil so the worms will have food.

Anyways thanks for taking the time to read, and I'll be looking forward to all of your replies!

No problems reusing the soil, but don't count on aerated compost tea to get nutrients to your plants. The goal with ACTs is to inoculate and keep going a large, healthy population of microbes (the ones who'll really be feeding your plants). Fermented plant extracts, juices and teas are another story, they can provide lots of nutrients depending on what you use.

Be careful when making teas with guanos. Don't breathe the dust, be sure to clean your hands, yadda yadda yadda boilerplate warnings. Also, be aware that guano teas stink like gack. I don't know if you've ever smelled gack, but it can cause some people to vomit all over themselves. So do some fermented plant extracts, haw!
(This last spring I almost made a sailor puke when I opened up my FPE brew when he was nearby, gave me a chuckle.)

I say get life in the bed ASAP, don't wait til you're done growing in it.

There's also another natural, and free, way to feed. Most folks who are willing to use bat guano are, oddly enough, unwilling to use this method.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

So, basically you'd be creating a plenum under the soil column... except you're not going to be using soil..?

I think you may need a bit more for feeding a well rounded 'diet' than kelp and guano, but it's a fantastic start, especially if the soil (media) itself is already well-amended. Keep in mind that various rock dusts have different break-down times, so some things you amend now won't be available to the plants for days, weeks, months or in some cases a couple of years (soft rock phosphate, for example).

I suggest starting with actual soil, then, and put the worms in from the get go. I suggest buying a yard of good quality topsoil, organic certified if you can get it and if they give you a soil report then even better (that's why my guy upcountry has/does). Then lighten that soil up using stuff like rice hulls, perhaps some peat and/or coir (careful with the amount of coir, don't go too high because then you're in new territory as far as feeding goes).

No problems reusing the soil, but don't count on aerated compost tea to get nutrients to your plants. The goal with ACTs is to inoculate and keep going a large, healthy population of microbes (the ones who'll really be feeding your plants). Fermented plant extracts, juices and teas are another story, they can provide lots of nutrients depending on what you use.

Be careful when making teas with guanos. Don't breathe the dust, be sure to clean your hands, yadda yadda yadda boilerplate warnings. Also, be aware that guano teas stink like gack. I don't know if you've ever smelled gack, but it can cause some people to vomit all over themselves. So do some fermented plant extracts, haw!
(This last spring I almost made a sailor puke when I opened up my FPE brew when he was nearby, gave me a chuckle.)

I say get life in the bed ASAP, don't wait til you're done growing in it.

There's also another natural, and free, way to feed. Most folks who are willing to use bat guano are, oddly enough, unwilling to use this method.

A properly brewed compost tea with guano smells just like a regular compost tea. Also if your extracts smell like shit then they are rotten and they should be thrown out.

If you are doing any of the above with guano and they smell bad then you did it wrong.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

Here is a tea I have going right now that has been brewing for about 3 hours. It has guano in it, and it will only smell like fresh compost tea. No bad smell at all.

This tea is brewed with my compost tea brewer. Before the bucket is full the water is brown. This thing works like a champ. It produces replicable results with high levels of diverse bacteria, strong numbers of protozoa, and very strong numbers of fungal hyphae. It only took a year to get it down.


Here are some test liquids that I just gone done making. they all have guano in them, and they only smell of alcohol a bit with possibly a hay undertone or maybe a little bit of sour.


If you make something with guano and it smells like shit then it was made wrong. It is rancid, and you should throw it out.

 

[Neo 420]

Also if your extracts smell like shit then they are rotten and they should be thrown out.

Not always true. A lot of FPE's smell like uber shit and thats how they are supposed to smell.

But the bat stuff shouldn't stink as you noted.

 

[FunTimesIndeed]

Seconded. A well made FPE tends to be fucking horrendous.

 

[growingcrazy]

You could also try it without the drain and go organic soil mix!

 

[brp4e]

Thanks for all the input guys

So, basically you'd be creating a plenum under the soil column... except you're not going to be using soil..

The eggcrate makes a false bottom which all the excess water drains through. Beneath it are pvc fittings to give it the height of about 1-2"

You could also try it without the drain and go organic soil mix!

I don't want to risk having too much water sitting in the bottom, I'd rather water more frequently and keep the drain.


What would your suggestions be for changing up the soil mix and fertilizer recipe? What would I need to re amend into the soil after every grow? And also what is the minimum amount of time I'd have to let the soil 'cook' for? Because I wanted to start as soon as I could.

Also; smell is not an issue

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=53792

LC's Soiless Mix #2:

6 parts Pro Mix BX or HP / Sunshine Mix (any flavor from #1 up) / Fox Farm Ocean Forest or Light Warrior
2 parts perlite
2 parts earthworm castings
Powdered (NOT PELLETED) dolomite lime @ 2 tablespoons per gallon or 1 cup per cubic foot of the soiless mix.

Veg mix-

1/3 cup Peruvian Seabird Guano (PSG)
1/3 cup High N Bat Guano (Mexican)
1/3 cup Earth Worm Castings (EWC)

Mix with water @ 1 cup of dry mix into 5 gallons of water to make the tea.

To that 5 gallons of tea add:
5 tbs. Maxicrop or Neptune's Harvest liquid seaweed.
5 tsp. Black Strap Molasses

Use it to water with every 3rd watering.

Flowering nute tea mix:

2/3 cup Peruvian Seabird Guano
2/3 cup Earth Worm Castings
2/3 cup High P Guano (Indonesian or Jamaican)

Mix with water @ 2 cups of dry mix into 5 gallons of water to make the tea.

To that 5 gallons of tea add:
5 tbs. Maxicrop or Neptune's Harvest liquid seaweed.
5 tsp. Black Strap Molasses
Use it to water with EVERY watering.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

Not always true. A lot of FPE's smell like uber shit and thats how they are supposed to smell.

But the bat stuff shouldn't stink as you noted.

Are you guys putting plant material, guano, etc.. in water, and all of that in a bucket, and then letting it rot?

 

[SeaMaiden]

I don't brew with guanos, the food safety police got me. Plus, I have bottled liquid guanos, and for some reason the stink they emit is... otherworldly, Satanlicious. The FPEs smell depending on what I'm doing and how long I let them go. The simplest ones are essentially as you describe, I macerate/chop the plant material, put it in a bucket, cover with water and let it rot (or, ferment, depending on whom you ask). How much it smells is also affected by what plant material I've put in there. For example, for some reason Calendula never smelled, nor did the woolly mullein or the lavender. I like the smell of alfalfa tea (I make it with actual hay, not meal), too. But I've done some other FPEs using plants around the property that became just awful in terms of Satanlicious stench.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

I don't brew with guanos, the food safety police got me. Plus, I have bottled liquid guanos, and for some reason the stink they emit is... otherworldly, Satanlicious. The FPEs smell depending on what I'm doing and how long I let them go. The simplest ones are essentially as you describe, I macerate/chop the plant material, put it in a bucket, cover with water and let it rot (or, ferment, depending on whom you ask). How much it smells is also affected by what plant material I've put in there. For example, for some reason Calendula never smelled, nor did the woolly mullein or the lavender. I like the smell of alfalfa tea (I make it with actual hay, not meal), too. But I've done some other FPEs using plants around the property that became just awful in terms of Satanlicious stench.

Alright I got it now. Yes making FPE that way can smell like complete shit. Now I am on the same page.

I use EM for my brews. I learned early on that I did not like the results of the water bucket method.

So you can not use guano on food? I foliar spray all of my food crops once a week with compost tea that also has guano in it. What is suppose to be the negative effect?

 

[SeaMaiden]

Guanos are said to be disease vectors, but I can't say which ones without searching (which I'll do right now!). I know a lot of growers who are also chefs and any time I've spoken about using these products they look at me aghast.

Done. What diseases found bat guano on Google.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

Guanos are said to be disease vectors, but I can't say which ones without searching (which I'll do right now!). I know a lot of growers who are also chefs and any time I've spoken about using these products they look at me aghast.

Done. What diseases found bat guano on Google.

So it appears that they are against fresh guano. As I have looked a "store bought" packaged guano under the scope and it is not alive. I could find nothing alive in guano.

So if it has no bacteria present, or anything else that I could identify, then how can it be bad?

This seems very misguided. It seems as though people have left the science out of the equation.

My best crops have been grown with guano. They taste so much better when you use guano.

I guess with the mislogic being used I should already be dead.

 

[sunnydog]

So it appears that they are against fresh guano. As I have looked a "store bought" packaged guano under the scope and it is not alive. I could find nothing alive in guano.

So if it has no bacteria present, or anything else that I could identify, then how can it be bad?

This seems very misguided. It seems as though people have left the science out of the equation.

My best crops have been grown with guano. They taste so much better when you use guano.

I guess with the mislogic being used I should already be dead.

Are you using a scope with 100,000x mag? Probably not. That being said, I use POUNDS of guano, and am still alive.

 

[brp4e]

Can we go back onto topic please,

As I said before the quote below is the fertilizer and soil plan I was going to use, now a lot of you said that it isn't enough to feed the plants..

So I'm curious to know what changes you all would recommend I make? Keep in mind I'm also adding red wrigglers(worms) into the soil.

Also for adding amendments into the soil, I'm going to be re using the soil. What would you add and how often?

On the guano issue, I have a respirator and I'm adding it into the tea bag outside. So whether it is 'safe' or not is not going to be an issue for me.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=53792

LC's Soiless Mix #2:

6 parts Pro Mix BX or HP
2 parts perlite
2 parts earthworm castings
Powdered (NOT PELLETED) dolomite lime @ 2 tablespoons per gallon or 1 cup per cubic foot of the soiless mix.

Veg mix-

1/3 cup Peruvian Seabird Guano (PSG)
1/3 cup High N Bat Guano (Mexican)
1/3 cup Earth Worm Castings (EWC)

Mix with water @ 1 cup of dry mix into 5 gallons of water to make the tea.

To that 5 gallons of tea add:
5 tbs. Maxicrop or Neptune's Harvest liquid seaweed.
5 tsp. Black Strap Molasses

Use it to water with every 3rd watering.

Flowering nute tea mix:

2/3 cup Peruvian Seabird Guano
2/3 cup Earth Worm Castings
2/3 cup High P Guano (Indonesian or Jamaican)

Mix with water @ 2 cups of dry mix into 5 gallons of water to make the tea.

To that 5 gallons of tea add:
5 tbs. Maxicrop or Neptune's Harvest liquid seaweed.
5 tsp. Black Strap Molasses
Use it to water with EVERY watering.

 

[brp4e]

Can we go back onto topic please,

As I said before the quote below is the fertilizer and soil plan I was going to use, now a lot of you said that it isn't enough to feed the plants..

So I'm curious to know what changes you all would recommend I make? Keep in mind I'm also adding red wrigglers(worms) into the soil.

Also for adding amendments into the soil, I'm going to be re using the soil. What would you add and how often?

On the guano issue, I have a respirator and I'm adding it into the tea bag outside. So whether it is 'safe' or not is not going to be an issue for me. That being said, this is why smell isn't going to be an issue

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=53792

LC's Soiless Mix #2:

6 parts Pro Mix BX or HP
2 parts perlite
2 parts earthworm castings
Powdered (NOT PELLETED) dolomite lime @ 2 tablespoons per gallon or 1 cup per cubic foot of the soiless mix.

Veg mix-

1/3 cup Peruvian Seabird Guano (PSG)
1/3 cup High N Bat Guano (Mexican)
1/3 cup Earth Worm Castings (EWC)

Mix with water @ 1 cup of dry mix into 5 gallons of water to make the tea.

To that 5 gallons of tea add:
5 tbs. Maxicrop or Neptune's Harvest liquid seaweed.
5 tsp. Black Strap Molasses

Use it to water with every 3rd watering.

Flowering nute tea mix:

2/3 cup Peruvian Seabird Guano
2/3 cup Earth Worm Castings
2/3 cup High P Guano (Indonesian or Jamaican)

Mix with water @ 2 cups of dry mix into 5 gallons of water to make the tea.

To that 5 gallons of tea add:
5 tbs. Maxicrop or Neptune's Harvest liquid seaweed.
5 tsp. Black Strap Molasses
Use it to water with EVERY watering.

 

[SeaMaiden]

I use stuff like alfalfa, kelp, rock dusts and compost instead of the guanos. I'm not telling anyone to not use them, I am simply making the observation that care should be taken when using them to brew teas. Washing hands and that respirator I'm sure will do you just fine in that regard.

Otherwise, the guanos will provide quite a bit of what your girls will need, but will likely need reamending anew every run. If you add rock dusts such as volcanic dusts, soft rock phosphate, etcetera, then reamending every run may not be necessary, depending on breakdown and time-til-availability (there's gotta be a better, one-word term for that).

And then there's pee. GREAT source of N and P, got good K, and micronutrients. Speaking of which, I'll suggest adding Azomite to that mix. A little dab should do ya.

So it appears that they are against fresh guano. As I have looked a "store bought" packaged guano under the scope and it is not alive. I could find nothing alive in guano.

So if it has no bacteria present, or anything else that I could identify, then how can it be bad?

This seems very misguided. It seems as though people have left the science out of the equation.

My best crops have been grown with guano. They taste so much better when you use guano.

I guess with the mislogic being used I should already be dead.

I personally am *not* saying don't use guano for those reasons, I'm saying be careful when handling it and especially if you're making teas with it. My own reasons for not using it much? It's fucking expensive, and I personally am not 100% certain that it's being harvested responsibly. Therefore I use very little, if at all. What I do believe is caution should be taken, especially when brewing it into a tea. You may not see anything alive in the dry forms, but what can happen if water is added? I don't know the answer to that, but like I said, the food safety police got me.

I may be an odd duck, but sustainability is one of the reasons why I got *out* of keeping marine ornamentals--almost *all* are wildcaught and depending on the region, may have been caught using cyanide. I dropped perlite from my mixes, why? It's just not sustainable and here we have all of this agricultural waste, especially in California in the form of rice hulls (probably almond and walnut hulls too, but I haven't tried to source or use those YET).

 

[brp4e]

I don't have azomite available locally, could I substitute it with rock phosphate and glacial rock dust?

For base soil I'm thinking either

per gallon of soil

1/3C hi N Guano Mexican Bat Guano or Peruvian Seabird Guano (PSG)
1/2C hi P Guano (Jamaican or Indonesian Bat Guano)
1TBS Kelp Meal
1TBS Green sand

or

1 tbs Blood meal per gallon
2 tbs Bone meal per gallon
1 tbs kelp meal per gallon
1 tbs green sand

I'm thinking maybe the guano mix just because I'm already going to be putting it into the tea, I'm also thinking of adding just as much alfalfa as EWC to the tea as well.

Then to re amend I'd mix in maybe half as much guano into the soil. I think I may be good on the rock dust, maybe re amend that every other grow. I'd be mixing in leaves into the soil for the worms so fertilizer would be coming from that to.

 

[SeaMaiden]

No, Azomite provides trace minerals these other dusts don't. Can you order it online? That's what I do because there's little I can source locally. I get mine from groworganic dot com.