Coco DTW

[A. Jones]

Here are my plants one week into veg

Ugro coco brick watered with 1,5ml A+B per liter and rhizotonic.
1,5ml Canna coco A+B and 2ml Cannazyme per liter.
Water is half and half tap with RO, 0,4 ec when mixed.
Ph 5,9.
They are under 500W COB Leds.

Now in the picture above they seemed doing kinda allright, they were a little bit pale, so i upped A+B to 2,3ml per liter. According to the canna feeding schedule.

This is them after another week

I flushed them and the run off was 3,6.
I will keep flushing untill the run off EC is the same as the feed.
And then mix a new feed,but at this point i dont know exactly what to do,
judging by the high run off i would say that i fed them too much.
But when i was feeding less, also when they were smaller, they seemed to be getting pale.
Shall i aim for the middle? Like around 2ml A+B per liter?

I have had the same problem before, i was running metrop and canna side by side, i tossed the whole run and started over again,
and here it goes again.

 

[f-e]

I'm not sure what the EC was going in, but you had insufficient run-off if 3.6 was coming out.

LED growers are commonly finding EC values around 1.7 work, which with 20% run-off, might measure around 2.2 coming out. With a run-off approaching 3.0 it's going to be getting toxic with even established plants.

There is no need to flush until it comes out how it went in. It could even be a bad move. As your coco is probably out of balance now.

edit: Just use your canna coco feed.

 

[A. Jones]

Thank you.
Ec going in was 1,7 in the last week.
Ive flushed with the remaining solution from the reservoir which i diluted with tap water.
Now the run off is around 1,5.

So shall i keep the EC at 1,7 and just increase the run off?

I was using the canna growguide feeding schedule from their website.

 

[pongster]

hey man, just checking that the dosage of canna coco a+b is 1:250 according to their website, therefore it's 4 ml per liter of each. With 15 ml/L of each is almost 4 times the recommended dosage.

i'm currently using h&g coco a+b and the highest dosage recommended is 2.9 ml/L of each A and B on the final weeks of flower. I guess you are using too much,
best of luck!

 

[ridoo]

15ml / L ?? wow

what say pongster is right, canna coco A+B is 4ml / L, and in coco you can run very good even at 2ml / L...

so, u sure u give 15ml / L, damn dude, lol, big mac every lunch, jeeeee lol

 

[A. Jones]

Im sorry, my bad my bad, its meant per 10 liter, i made a typo over there.

 

[f-e]

I think with an EC of 1.7 you will be right, no matter how much concentrate that takes. Watch the run-off though. Aim for 20%+ of your feed to come straight through, and be an EC little higher. If it's creeping up, you can perhaps lower the 1.7 or if the run-off is equal or even lower than 1.7 you can increase the feed.

The run-off is a great indicator of the EC at the root. I watch that figure closely, putting it's importance above that of the input. If I want 2.2 I can either feed at 2.0 with lots and lots of run-off, or feed at 1.4 with little. Either way, I will get the root zone where I want it. The easy route is 1.7 though, and the correct 20%. The other two options aren't sustainable.

I expect problem heading past 2.6 or under 1.7 so there is a good sized target window.

Your coco might be a little buggered right now, but will recover. Watch your new growth closely to see if I got it right. Hopefully it will be fine, without draining mobile elements from elsewhere on the plant.

Edit: 500w of cobs? Over that space they wouldn't want that, in this state of health. Give them a rest. 150w maybe. Good humidity and 4 hours sleep a day

 

[DrDee]

Hi Jones,
Wanted to ask you if any of the flushes you did were with plain water ot fertigation solution or what? I grow in coco with very low EC. I rarely hit 1.5 at the peak of flowering. Just wanted to make sure you didn't wash out all your coco calmag buffering.
JD

 

[pongster]

hi brother, nice to read that it was just a typo,
so perhaps if everything seems correct; is there a chance your meters are malfunctioning?
and yeah, are you sure to keep that ec that high? i mean, if the meters are working fine,

also, i saw you have drippers, how often do you irrigate? and how much solution is being given during each irrigation time? just asking for my own reference, just starting with coco myself.

seems to me that the combination between irrigation times and duration could be the key for this, but surely is a long shot and perhaps not worth to be taken into account,

best smokes

 

[A. Jones]

hi brother, nice to read that it was just a typo,
so perhaps if everything seems correct; is there a chance your meters are malfunctioning?
and yeah, are you sure to keep that ec that high? i mean, if the meters are working fine,

also, i saw you have drippers, how often do you irrigate? and how much solution is being given during each irrigation time? just asking for my own reference, just starting with coco myself.

seems to me that the combination between irrigation times and duration could be the key for this, but surely is a long shot and perhaps not worth to be taken into account,

best smokes

Hello.
About meters, i double check PH with meter and the ph drops. Its never below 5,6 and above 6,1.

About EC, ive just bought a new meter few weeks ago, also the number correlate with the numbers from Canna calculator.

EC being high, first i started feeding a little below the recommended dosage, just not to overdo it at the beginning. I fed around 1,2 while they were in smaller containers.
After a week i reppoted into bigger pots and as they were looking a little bit pale so i upped the dosage to 1,6-1,7. Pretty much the values that Canna recommends for my type of water.

Now from what ive used with different nutrients, and under hps, also based on my observations, those numbers seemed a little bit high to me, but with lower EC plants were starting to show deficiencies.

Drippers, ive been using those for a while, havent measured how much solution each one of them gives, also some give more, other a bit less.
First week veg i feed every other day, second every day, then after switching to flower up to 3 feedings per day. 80 liters lasts me for 7 days when they are thirsty the most.
Ive been using it like this for a while and with HPS it worked pretty well.
Thank you.

Hi Jones,
Wanted to ask you if any of the flushes you did were with plain water ot fertigation solution or what? I grow in coco with very low EC. I rarely hit 1.5 at the peak of flowering. Just wanted to make sure you didn't wash out all your coco calmag buffering.
JD

Hey Doc.
For flush, i diluted the remaining feed solution with tap water, EC was around 1, i flushed with that and then watered with freshly made solution with a little lower EC than before, around 1,4-1,5.

When i was using Advanced hydroponics or Metrop i never had to go over 1,6 at max as well.

I think with an EC of 1.7 you will be right, no matter how much concentrate that takes. Watch the run-off though. Aim for 20%+ of your feed to come straight through, and be an EC little higher. If it's creeping up, you can perhaps lower the 1.7 or if the run-off is equal or even lower than 1.7 you can increase the feed.

The run-off is a great indicator of the EC at the root. I watch that figure closely, putting it's importance above that of the input. If I want 2.2 I can either feed at 2.0 with lots and lots of run-off, or feed at 1.4 with little. Either way, I will get the root zone where I want it. The easy route is 1.7 though, and the correct 20%. The other two options aren't sustainable.

I expect problem heading past 2.6 or under 1.7 so there is a good sized target window.

Your coco might be a little buggered right now, but will recover. Watch your new growth closely to see if I got it right. Hopefully it will be fine, without draining mobile elements from elsewhere on the plant.

Edit: 500w of cobs? Over that space they wouldn't want that, in this state of health. Give them a rest. 150w maybe. Good humidity and 4 hours sleep a day

Thank you.
I will give them more run off. The biggest problem is i cannot check them everyday, because the place is far from where i live. But i will come in 4-5 days, so hopefully things will get right.

I lowered the wattage to 200W, thats the minimum setting.
The tent is 150x300, the plan was to let them grow bigger and split them under 2 lights.

I was thinking maybe some calmag issues, i mean my water is supposed to have plenty of calcium, straight from tap its got 0,8 EC, thats why i was diluting it with RO.
The water testing shows 69 mg/l cal and 12 ml/l mag.

Thanks everyone for their input. Its greatly appreciated.

 

[DunHav`nFun]

Many yrs back when H&G`s "Dripclean" came on the market , Commercial growers on the left coast found out by accidental overdose that with .1 ml per gal compared to manufacturer`s recommended dosage of .04 ml per gal , Dripclean`s "ionic properties" not only kept all top feed equipment crystal clean , but also completely all but did away with DTW coco due to it`s latching onto ALL residual salt deposits with smaller containers , multiple feeds per day AND lower EC/PPM`s across the board...Their new revised dosage has just so happens to be guess what...… .1 ml per gal which actually helps new growers from the get....but....me....?

I wasted shit tons of nutrients down the drain over a decade due to Dripclean not being on the market when I cropped hard back in the day , but I digress.....Hell....folks are even doing recirculating coco these days with all but no hiccups and scheduled rez changes with top flushes using 1/2 strength nutrients , and that`s even WITHOUT dripclean but making sure the medium`s properly buffered with Cal/Mag equalizing said medium`s CEC/cation exchange capacity, and that was blasphemy and not cool back in the day due to all the fuckups from coco`s CEC.....so.....

Next run A.Jones , getchas some Dripclean and use it from the beginning , but also make sure your brick coco is properly buffered before transplants , and use lower ppm/ec across the board with increased feeds per day lights on and you`ll go a long way toward dialage and happy plants.....

What you`ve got now is a clusterfuck of imbalances and lockouts sendin ph sideways and ec/ppms zoomin , so always flush with 1/2 strength nutrients till runoff falls within decent parameters after several feed sequences of checking it , then you should be on the road to recovery.....and yeah , as stated above , if LED`s are too close to the plants it will increase metabolism as well as nutrient needs , so there`s a learning curve with all new setups.....Good luck and keep us updated....

Hope that helps and.....

Peace....DHF.... …..

 

[gr866]

Looks like a bit of Cal/Mag issues.
This is just a guide, it fluctuates depending on stage of growth.
I have cut my CaliMagic back to 1.5ml/gal.
LESS IS MORE

200 ppm of a + b for veg. is plenty.
350 ppm of a + b for flower is plenty.

CaliMagic/Canna A&B ratio
150 ppm/200 ppm = 350
100 ppm/300 ppm = 400
50 ppm/ 400 ppm= 450

Here is a chart the gives the ratios of Calcium in given ppm of A&B.
This Calcium information is purely based on a Canna schedule, using CaliMagic. Once you hit around 700 ppm, Canna base nutes, you no longer need Cal/mag additives.
This is based on slightly rough math but is very close to correct, in my experience.

A&B
3 ml/gal = .4 EC = 200 ppm with around 44 ppm of calcium
4.5 ml/gal = .6 EC = 300 ppm with around 66 ppm of calcium
6.2 ml/gal = .8 EC = 400 ppm with around 88 ppm of calcium
7.7 ml/gal = 1 EC = 500 ppm with around 112 ppm of calcium
9.2 ml/gal = 1.2 EC = 600 ppm with around 135 ppm of calcium.

I use GH Cal/Magic and I believe the recommended rate is 3.5 ml (1 tsp/5 ml)/gallon. I use Canna Coco's line of nutrients but I back off of their recommended rates, as I feel they are way high. For example, in veg I will add only 200 ppm of A&B and in flower 350 ppm. Now these rates do not give me the Cal ratio needed. You need around 150 ppm of calcium alone.....so even if when I'm at 200 ppm if I only added 100 ppm of Calimagic, only 75 is calcium so I would still be a tad short. In flower, I use RO (55 ppm of Cal/Mag), to this I add 0.75 ml Cal/Magic (68 ppm) and 0.5 grams Epsom (63 ppm) per gallon to bring my #'s to 131 ppm, below the 150 ppm needed, That's without the 55 ppm of the RO, then begin adding the base nutrients. But I have been working with this and it seems ok. I believe it has to do with the 55 ppm of Cal/Mag that is added back to my RO water.

pH of 5.8 and let it drift to 6.0 to 6.1. Drip Clean for the win, helps clean the root system of excess nutes and keeps you nozzles clean.

Hope this makes sense!

Here is my last worksheet.

 

[A. Jones]

Hello everyone.

After i gave them a decent flush, and i mixed the solution with tap water only, plants seem to have bounced back.
Take a look:

Now i dont know what exactly helped, but i will keep using just the tap water and hopefully everything will work out.

I looked into the drip clean, but where im from i can only get something similar made by atami or general hydro, which one would you recommend? Or are they all the same?

 

[f-e]

0.8 from the tap? I can see why you would mix in RO then. Perhaps to get something like 0.4 at the most. I can't imagine running 1.7 if 0.8 of it was hard water. Your stems are very red which may be a strain thing, but more likely means they are still unhappy. Low K would be my guess, which isn't really low in the feed, but rather, is struggling against the high ec from the tap. Coco should hold calcium and magnesium and Potassium. But with so such hard water the ratio is likely off.

 

[A. Jones]

Yeah thats why i was mixing it with RO, i mean its pretty strange, because when i compare the water reports with some of my friends water, which has low EC, the Ca Mg ppm values are pretty similar, now i can only wonder what makes the 0,4-0,5 of the extra EC.

Also there is another thing, and that is changing of the water supplier water source, every now and then the water changes, and it comes out EC 0,2. The report on their website changes accordingly, but the Ca and Mg values are even a little bit higher than in the 0,8 EC water.

 

[pongster]

hey bro, did you try using just ro water, and add ca-mg through bottled/powder nutes? though it could cost a little more, i guess time and peace of mind have their own price.

there's a lot of shit in tap water, mine comes out at 1.6 ec, figure that.
best of luck

 

[A. Jones]

Hello,

only with my mother plants.

But i think i will, ive got 2 reservoirs so i will run them side by side.

How much calmag would you recommend?

Ive got atami which has
N 5,2%
Ca 6,8%
Mg 2,5%

and Vitalink that has
N 1,8%
Ca 4%
Mg 1,7%

Which one would you guys use?

 

[pongster]

Hello,

only with my mother plants.

But i think i will, ive got 2 reservoirs so i will run them side by side.

How much calmag would you recommend?

Ive got atami which has
N 5,2%
Ca 6,8%
Mg 2,5%

and Vitalink that has
N 1,8%
Ca 4%
Mg 1,7%

Which one would you guys use?

hello brother,
i'm currently using "Grotek CalMax" (the cheapest Ca-Mg in the growshop) which is, according to the label:
NO3 - 2%
Ca 3%
Mg 1%
Fe 0.1%

I have used from seedling stage until now (5 pair of leaves) a dosage of 0.4 ml/L, and have been doing fine (at least no signs of defficiency or excess).

About those two products, i would use the one with less N, as you are already feeding your N needs through A+B nutes. But my knowledge comes from reading and not experience yet,

best regards brother

 

[FunkBomb]

Get yourself some Jacks or Floraflex and you'll have no problems.

-Funk