A Few Late Flower Problems

[Occiput]

Hello, I’m running a DTW coco setup in a 2x4ft. tent, and I am a little concerned about my plants. They are at the end of week nine of flower, and their leaves are canoeing and some leaves’ edges are turning orange and crispy. I had some minor nutrient burn earlier in flower at the tips of the leaves, but this seems different.

The temp inside my tent is usually in the sixties, and the humidity is usually around 60% (the same as ambient). I’m running 3000k kingbrites at 1000ppfd at the canopy and just switched them to 11/13 from 12/12.

The plants are receiving the following nutrient mix five times a day:

2mL/gal Calimagic
3.2g/gal Megacrop
.85g/gal Bud Explosion
.25g/gal Epsom Salt

The EC is about 1.6 and pH ranges from 5.8-6.1. I also add ~0.5mL/gal Garden Friendly Fungicide as beneficial bacteria to help keep the reservoir clean. I assume the reservoir is at about ambient temp, so usually in the sixties.

I just measured runoff, and the hindu kush, which has more orange spots on the leaves, had EC = 2.1 and pH = 6.2, while the less affected maui waui had EC = 1.6 and pH = 6.1. Maybe I need to flush the hindu kush with some pH’d distilled water? It should be closer to reaching maturity than the maui waui, so maybe its nutrient needs have lessened and more salts are remaining in the coco? They both have a decent amount of runoff with every watering.

One or both of the plants also must’ve hermied at some point during the cycle, because I’m starting to see some seeds in some of the buds. I never saw any male traits on either of them, and they’re grown from feminized seeds, but this is my first grow so I easily could’ve missed the signs. From what I understand this usually happens because of heat stress (unlikely), or light stress. I don’t think I’ve light stressed them, but my tent isn’t super lightproof (leaky zippers, open port next to the wall for intake), so maybe it leaks enough to have done damage over time. Trichomes are largely still clear or milky on both plants, with the odd amber here and there. I guess seed development is slowing the bud development process.

Does anyone have any idea what the leaf issue might be, or why the plants might have hermied? I’d appreciate any input, thanks

​

 

[gizmo666]

it does look like heat stress but could also easily be a nutrient problem
i think i would flush them at the end of week nine maybe you should be considering this anyway
hope you get it sorted

 

[Creeperpark]

I would raise the lights number one! I think gizmo has a point they look like there may be a little salt build-up. BTW those buds look very nice.

 

[Switcher56]

You may want to consider CO2 augmentation @ that PPFD. As creeper said, try raising your light, if you can't.

Week 9 of flower... How long does that strain go for?

 

[Occiput]

Thanks everyone for the help.

I'll flush the plant with the higher runoff EC and see if that stops the orange spots from advancing. Unfortunately I can't raise my lights any higher, but I'll dim them to about 850ppfd. I had issues with too much light intensity earlier in the grow, and I dimmed them then, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was happening again.

The pictured strain (hindu kush) is supposed to go 8-9 weeks, and the maui waui is supposed to go 9-11. Both plants have a few amber trichomes on the sugar leaves, and very few on the flowers themselves. The hindu kush seems more heavily seeded and I think it's slowing down flower development. Since I'm now "off-schedule", I'm unsure of when to start flushing for harvest. Is there a good way to gauge when I'm about a week out from ~10% amber trichomes so I can start the final flush?

 

[Switcher56]

Thanks everyone for the help.

I'll flush the plant with the higher runoff EC and see if that stops the orange spots from advancing. Unfortunately I can't raise my lights any higher, but I'll dim them to about 850ppfd. I had issues with too much light intensity earlier in the grow, and I dimmed them then, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was happening again.

The pictured strain (hindu kush) is supposed to go 8-9 weeks, and the maui waui is supposed to go 9-11. Both plants have a few amber trichomes on the sugar leaves, and very few on the flowers themselves. The hindu kush seems more heavily seeded and I think it's slowing down flower development. Since I'm now "off-schedule", I'm unsure of when to start flushing for harvest. Is there a good way to gauge when I'm about a week out from ~10% amber trichomes so I can start the final flush?

I gather it all depending on what % amber you want. Cloudy = energetic for the lack of a better word whilst amber = more sedating, not more potent.

Here, I go with the breeders recommendation +2 (+2 being the flush).

Last run, Ringo's gift and King Louis. Ringo called for 7-9 and, King Louis 8-9. I cut my flush short by a week because King Louis got ready in a hurry. So Ringo was 10 weeks old and King Louis was the same. Most of the time my planned intentions work. This time here, like I said, it turned quickly. I've got that in my notes because I never grew her before. She definitely finished (accelerated pace) after I withheld the feed, which is only once/week.

 

[Occiput]

I gather it all depending on what % amber you want. Cloudy = energetic for the lack of a better word whilst amber = more sedating, not more potent.

Here, I go with the breeders recommendation +2 (+2 being the flush).

Last run, Ringo's gift and King Louis. Ringo called for 7-9 and, King Louis 8-9. I cut my flush short by a week because King Louis got ready in a hurry. So Ringo was 10 weeks old and King Louis was the same. Most of the time my planned intentions work. This time here, like I said, it turned quickly. I've got that in my notes because I never grew her before. She definitely finished (accelerated pace) after I withheld the feed, which is only once/week.

I'm wanting to harvest at ~10-20% amber, and I'm already seeing few amber, so I might have to start flushing soon. How much change in trichomes did you see during the King Louis flush? No amber to a lot of amber? Or just more of a slight increase that was quicker than you expected?

I wonder if my plants will react to the flush really quickly because they're used to being fed 5 times a day?

 

[Switcher56]

Dunno good buddy. I never shot for such high concentrations.


Immature trichomes (Ed Rosenthal)


Mature


Over ripe

I grow in HP Promix. I can't remember which run it was (strains) but, I had plants turn in to senescence waiting for trichomes to turn. There are so many variables.

We can clearly see from the pics the clear trichs in 1st set, the proper "plump trichs" in the 2nd and "collapsed" trichs in the 3rd. Even the run that went into "full senescence", did not have "collapsed trichs".

When it comes to flushing, the jury is pretty much out on "flushing" or the myth surrounding flushing. That is why I do the mfr +2.

Day 49 KL

Day 56

Harvest day 70

Ringo day 56

Ringo harvest

I started my flush on day 63, harvested on day 70. Louis was starting to cannibalize its leaves, which is a good sign.

There are many factors to consider here:

• 1 ~ I grow in HP Promix (augmented with 25% more perlite);
• 2 ~ Flushing until 10% run off leaves my pot sodden vice moist. I believe that 10% run off was migrated from the "coco" world;
• 3 ~ My normal schedule is W D D F D D W, where:
  • W = water
  • D = dry
  • F = feed
• 4 ~ I use my tent to dry my buds

I don't have a pic of day 63 as I was simply too busy that day. Of late, I came to find out, a lot has to do with lighting. I was reading that "certain" LEDs fail in "ambering" trichomes. The pics provide are "super macro". The buds OTOH were inspected using a 60X loop (no pics)

Every run I tweak certain things (intend to tweak) and normally only one thing at a time, at the most 2. They have to be measurable. If you try many different things... you don't know what effect did what for the lack of a better word. My last run, I never allowed my light to go above 600-700 umols. My previous runs were 850-900 umols as 1000 umols require CO2 augmentation. IMHO, unless you have a sealed room, you are wasting your time and money "augmenting" CO2. I was getting some mild light bleach a (850-900). Then there is a caveat... I grow medicine e.g various strains, or replenish a strain I am getting low on. The latter provides me a comparison from a previous runs, as I keep judicious notes.

This is what works for me in my environment and setup. Everyone's mileage will vary. Why? It works for me

Google is your friend https://flowerandfreedom.com/grow/ca...es-curling-up/ Canoeing leaves

"If you notice that your cannabis plants leaves are canoeing up, this is often a sign that your plant is in distress and asking for help. Often referred to as “the claw” your leaves begin to curl or claw upwards because they are in trouble, this is an important sign to lookout for during your grow!

During your cannabis grow it’s important to constantly be checking up on how your plants are getting along. If you begin to notice that your plants leaves are curling upwards in a canoe type shape, then you really need to take action before it’s too late!

This condition is often referred to as “The Claw” or “Canoeing” due to the curled shape. This is a tell-tale call for help from your plants and means that something is irritating them during their growth cycle."

Most Common Causes of Cannabis Leaves Curling:

• Overwatering
• Over-Fertilization
• Heat Stress
• Windburn

The temp inside my tent is usually in the sixties, and the humidity is usually around 60% (the same as ambient). I’m running 3000k kingbrites at 1000ppfd at the canopy and just switched them to 11/13 from 12/12.

and

One or both of the plants also must’ve hermied at some point during the cycle, because I’m starting to see some seeds in some of the buds.

... answered above (this is often a sign that your plant is in distress).

Those numbers to me are out of wack. You should be looking at 20-25 degC (68-78 degF (lights on lights off) When it comes to RH... it is winter here and I have to augment my ambient (house RH with a humidifier that is not part of my "grow op".

Depending on what you got (for a setup) The above numbers will vary (read need to) throughout the "grow cycle). I finish my girls (last 3 weeks) @ 75 deg and 55% RH. IAW

Still dang good for a 1st grow

 

[Occiput]

Switcher, thank you very much for the in-depth response and pictures. The detail is appreciated.

It is very interesting to see how quickly those buds matured.

My temps and humidity are definitely off. I'm going to have to increase the temps in my tent, because my ambient humidity is rarely below 60%.

 

[Switcher56]

Switcher, thank you very much for the in-depth response and pictures. The detail is appreciated.

It is very interesting to see how quickly those buds matured.

My temps and humidity are definitely off. I'm going to have to increase the temps in my tent, because my ambient humidity is rarely below 60%.

U R welcome good buddy Heck I remember my 1st run, and someone asked how my VPD was. I said... my who? As I never hear the acronym before, let alone why it was so important. I went on the presumption, if you can grow tomatoes, you can grow cannabis LOL. Well I started off my tent with tomatoes and they weren't doing good, until I moved them to a southern facing window where they recovered and I had a successful run (tomatoes). But, when I researched VPD on the tube, some of it was wayyyy to technical, until buddy showed me his garden vice simply talking about what VPD is/was. I said, his various veg plants looked like my tomatoes. I finally understood what VPD actually was. There are a variety of VPD charts out there, I simply prefer this one. Why it tells me everything I need to know. I don't need an "interactive app" to tell me e.g slide the pointer ect... I simply move my finger on the chart (the old fashion way). It's hanging on the fridge in front of the flower room in the re-purposed Den.

I know folks who aren't legal don't like mentioning where they are located, for good reason. But what continent are you on, that you have an ambient RH of 60% at this time of year? More importantly what controllers are you using (if any) to control your habitat. As you are growing indoors and, you have been promoted to mother nature. You are "responsible" to see to their needs, or keep them happy.

So, please mention how your "set up" and maybe we can fine tune what you are doing

 

[TanzanianMagic]

The plants are receiving the following nutrient mix five times a day:

2mL/gal Calimagic
3.2g/gal Megacrop
.85g/gal Bud Explosion
.25g/gal Epsom Salt

The EC is about 1.6 and pH ranges from 5.8-6.1. I also add ~0.5mL/gal Garden Friendly Fungicide as beneficial bacteria to help keep the reservoir clean. I assume the reservoir is at about ambient temp, so usually in the sixties.

They look like they have magnesium lockout, because of the canoeing, the leaf tips being affected first and the fact that it's in flower and needs more Mg.

Mg gets locked out with too much Ca or K.

See figure 2, Mulder's Chart
https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/more_reasons_for_soil_testing

There may be too much potassium in the Bud Explosion.

Also, if you're feeding 5x a day, 1.6 EC may be too high. If you cut it back to 1.4 and then 1.2 and lower, see what happens.

 

[Occiput]

U R welcome good buddy Heck I remember my 1st run, and someone asked how my VPD was. I said... my who? As I never hear the acronym before, let alone why it was so important. I went on the presumption, if you can grow tomatoes, you can grow cannabis LOL. Well I started off my tent with tomatoes and they weren't doing good, until I moved them to a southern facing window where they recovered and I had a successful run (tomatoes). But, when I researched VPD on the tube, some of it was wayyyy to technical, until buddy showed me his garden vice simply talking about what VPD is/was. I said, his various veg plants looked like my tomatoes. I finally understood what VPD actually was. There are a variety of VPD charts out there, I simply prefer this one. Why it tells me everything I need to know. I don't need an "interactive app" to tell me e.g slide the pointer ect... I simply move my finger on the chart (the old fashion way). It's hanging on the fridge in front of the flower room in the re-purposed Den.

I know folks who aren't legal don't like mentioning where they are located, for good reason. But what continent are you on, that you have an ambient RH of 60% at this time of year? More importantly what controllers are you using (if any) to control your habitat. As you are growing indoors and, you have been promoted to mother nature. You are "responsible" to see to their needs, or keep them happy.

So, please mention how your "set up" and maybe we can fine tune what you are doing

I stuck to a good VPD when the plants were in veg and it was easier to control the humidity according to temperature. Now that the plants have bulked significantly though, I haven't been able to drop humidity in the tent with a dehumidifier, and I think it would be tough to treat the room the tent is in. I was using an inkbird humidity controller with a humidifier and dehumidifer before. I'm not controlling temp at all right now, I haven't done enough research yet to know the easiest way to do it. I have a hydrofarm on/off thermostat, and I'm thinking I can use some heat tape to raise the temp? I'll have to do more research.

For the rest of my setup, I have a simple watering system consisting of an aquarium pump, timer, and drippers, with a condensate pump moving all the drainage to a reservoir outside the tent. I also have four 6" fans at various heights moving air around, and an exhaust fan with a filter that's running at low speed 24/7. Running the exhaust constantly has been the only thing that's kept the humidity at ambient. I'm definitely open to any more input you have on my setup and grow in general.

As for where I live, I'm on the coast of California. Luckily I don't have to deal with many legal restrictions here. I'm currently reading 71% ambient humidity.

 

[Switcher56]

You got me. Talk to local growers I guess

 

[Occiput]

They look like they have magnesium lockout, because of the canoeing, the leaf tips being affected first and the fact that it's in flower and needs more Mg.

Mg gets locked out with too much Ca or K.

See figure 2, Mulder's Chart
https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/more_reasons_for_soil_testing

There may be too much potassium in the Bud Explosion.

Also, if you're feeding 5x a day, 1.6 EC may be too high. If you cut it back to 1.4 and then 1.2 and lower, see what happens.

Magnesium lockout is an interesting idea. I had big problems with magnesium deficiency in veg, so I started supplementing with 1.5g/gal of epsom salts and that cleared things up nicely. I lowered the magnesium when I started with the BE in flower because it already has epsom salts in it. Admittedly, I did not do any calculations to make sure my ratios were still correct. I also started having some minor calcium deficiency in early flower, and added in the calimagic. That obviously increased the ratio of Ca to Mg. Both adding more calcium and potentially decreasing overall magnesium was definitely unwise.

I'm using the BE at about half of the recommended dosage for late bloom, so I imagine that too much potassium is not the issue? But like I said I haven't done any calculations for my NPK ratio.

Do you think it would be smart to decrease EC as well as either increase epsom salt, or decrease calimagic, or would it be better to just decrease EC at first? Like switcher said, changing too many things at once seems like it might muddy the waters as much as anything.

 

[Occiput]

You got me. Talk to local growers I guess

No worries, it's obviously a bit of a tricky situation. I really appreciate all the help!

 

[Three Berries]

I stuck to a good VPD when the plants were in veg and it was easier to control the humidity according to temperature. Now that the plants have bulked significantly though, I haven't been able to drop humidity in the tent with a dehumidifier, and I think it would be tough to treat the room the tent is in. I was using an inkbird humidity controller with a humidifier and dehumidifer before. I'm not controlling temp at all right now, I haven't done enough research yet to know the easiest way to do it. I have a hydrofarm on/off thermostat, and I'm thinking I can use some heat tape to raise the temp? I'll have to do more research.

For the rest of my setup, I have a simple watering system consisting of an aquarium pump, timer, and drippers, with a condensate pump moving all the drainage to a reservoir outside the tent. I also have four 6" fans at various heights moving air around, and an exhaust fan with a filter that's running at low speed 24/7. Running the exhaust constantly has been the only thing that's kept the humidity at ambient. I'm definitely open to any more input you have on my setup and grow in general.

As for where I live, I'm on the coast of California. Luckily I don't have to deal with many legal restrictions here. I'm currently reading 71% ambient humidity.

The AC infinity Cloudline fans can be had with programmable humidity and temperature control. Good fans.

 

[TanzanianMagic]

Do you think it would be smart to decrease EC as well as either increase epsom salt, or decrease calimagic, or would it be better to just decrease EC at first? Like switcher said, changing too many things at once seems like it might muddy the waters as much as anything.

You could take it one step at a time and see which works best.

However before any of that...

"a DTW coco setup"

Is that anything like this setup?

https://www.icmag.com/forum/marijuana-growing/growing-in-coco-coir/366841-coco-dtw

My question then is: do you use straight coco or mix in perlite?

If you're using only coco, then watering 6x per day is way too often.

 

[Occiput]

The AC infinity Cloudline fans can be had with programmable humidity and temperature control. Good fans.

Thanks for the tip, I'll have to check them out.

 

[Occiput]

You could take it one step at a time and see which works best.

However before any of that...

"a DTW coco setup"

Is that anything like this setup?

https://www.icmag.com/forum/marijuana-growing/growing-in-coco-coir/366841-coco-dtw

My question then is: do you use straight coco or mix in perlite?

If you're using only coco, then watering 6x per day is way too often.

I sifted the coco to remove almost all of the really fine pith, and mixed in about 15% perlite. It definitely doesn't get saturated the same way pure coco does. You can see the texture here.

I dropped my EC to about 1.4, so we'll see what happens. I'm thinking it's time to start flushing the hindu kush though. It has some clear and a few amber trichomes, but they're mostly cloudy.