Alternating nodes?

[neongreen]

A basic question that I should know the answer to, but I've forgotten and can't find the answer to...

Do alternating nodes mean the plant is sexually mature and ready to flower, or that it is actually flowering?

 

[mojave green]

A basic question that I should know the answer to, but I've forgotten and can't find the answer to...

Do alternating nodes mean the plant is sexually mature and ready to flower

me thinks that. clones and reveg clones do this in my veg room.

 

[Mrs.Ping29]

It means it mature. But really you should wait for pre flower hairs before flowering her out!

 

[luxcultivars]

It means it mature. But really you should wait for pre flower hairs before flowering her out!

This isn't necessary. Pre-flower hairs don't mean much in particular other than allowing you to determine the sex of your seedling. Some seedlings will resist showing hairs more than others; it has nothing to do with maturity. A 5 week old seedling may show hairs everywhere during the veg stage, while a sister plant of the same strain may become 4 months old and still not even show sex until after 2 weeks of 12/12. That said, autoflowering strains will show hairs based upon maturity, though.

To the OP: yes, alternate branching means your plant has reached maturity. Seedlings have an opposite branch and leaf pattern initially. Waiting for the branches to become alternate on seedlings is actually a great way to make sure that your plant has matured to the point where the flowers will look very similar/consistent in subsequent clone crops.

As a breeder I usually grow out groups of a dozen or more seedlings of any given new type (feminized only now for me) and when the branches finally go alternate I then take clones of them and just cull the original seedlings. Why? Because there is a slight difference in the final product/flowers of younger seedlings vs. their fully-mature and alternated clone offspring. Not better or worse, understand: just slightly different.

I find that these clones give me a solid idea what future clone crops of each plant will look like; I make my final decisions based upon these, not seedlings. Many hundreds of seedling groups has taught me this. Young seedling runs that haven't alternated yet (say, ones flowered at 5 or 6 weeks old from germination) are often faster-growing and more vigorous before having fully matured. Often the yield from them can be a bit higher. Structure and stretch amount definitely varies between the seedling and the first alternate-branched clone generations; then it stabilizes.

I would assume that this somehow relates to the initial hormonal profile that seedlings have before they mature. Like horny teenagers.

It just depends upon what your goal is. I'm looking more at the long-term potential of clones as I collect elite cultivars. If you have a great seedline, though, and aren't looking for long-term relationships... you can definitely get huge yields and high quality from seedling crops.

 

[luxcultivars]

I should probably add that if you just keep a seedling around in veg for months it will start going alternate anywhere from 2 to 4 months old, depending upon the phenotype. The clones that I take from seedlings aren't stable because they are clones; they are stable because they are older. Each cutting is as old as its mother.

So, by the time I veg a clone from a seedling out for a month or two, that age gets added to the seedling's original age. Make sense? The consistency I'm looking for and describing is simply due to maturity.

A seedling that is 4 to 6 months old when flowered will be consistent to its clone offspring. A 5 to 6 week old seedling flowered won't be.

 

[neongreen]

Thank you all for the replies

 

[Budley Doright]

When you begin to see this alternation of leafsets (Alternating Phyllotaxy) from one node to the next, you're plants will be showing preflowers very soon!
======================================

IMO....this is correct..... alternating nodes isnt the real indicator that the plant is mature....

preflowers are......

 

[luxcultivars]

Hi again, neongreen -

The reason that alternating nodes are a more reliable method for determining maturity is this: many plants will show hairs (such as autoflowerers) before they begin alternating, but these plants will still change and mature quite a bit after showing hairs. When the branches begin to alternate, however, the plant has stabilized and is more able to flower to its best potential.

You don't have to wait; you can go by hairs. You can also just flower at 6 weeks. There can be differences seen, though, if you decide to wait for alternating nodes. Any experienced breeder knows this.

It's worth noting that some plants will alternate long before showing any hairs at all. I just grew out a run of 20 seedling sisters and 4 of them didn't show any hairs at all until 2 weeks after 12/12 started. These seedlings were 4 months old. Their sister plants showed hairs normally, at around 5 or 6 weeks.

If hairs were used in that case to determine 'maturity' I'd still be sitting around waiting. I'm honestly not sure how hairs could be considered a more reliable method when this is sometimes the case, but I suppose anyone is free to believe whatever they choose.

 

[mojave green]

From Clarke's Marijuana Botany

Before the start of flowering, the phyllotaxy (leaf arrangement) reverses and the number of leaflets per leaf decreases until a small single leaflet appears below each pair of calyxes. The phyllotaxy also changes from decussate (opposite) to alternate (staggered) and usually remains alternate throughout the floral stages regardless of sexual type.

 

[luxcultivars]

I tried to bring up that Clarke would actually agree with what I'm saying, and that he was just being misunderstood due to his phrasing in that earlier quote, but... yeah. That didn't convince some folks. What a weird thing to get all defensive and hostile about. Go figure.

It's pretty simple when you think about it. All plants will go from opposite to alternate in the first ~ 8 weeks or so, but some plants won't show any preflowers even when they are twice that age. I just saw this again recently, as I described. I've seen it with dozens of rounds of seedlings over the years; some plants resist showing preflowers until put into 12/12. Since this is pretty hard to dispute, I'm not seeing how preflowers could be a 'better' method. But now I know: to some people it is! I've been properly belittled and schooled.

The notion that I somehow need to prove myself (to someone who can't even manage a civil conversation) by posting a link to someone else explaining this stuff is lost on me. I can only think that 'proof' and links are very important to people without much personal experience.

I'm not sure why I would even say it unless I knew it were the case. What is there to gain from presenting false information, exactly?

 

[Budley Doright]

One of the really good moderators here has advised me that.....

he has removed a number of posts of mine which some folks thought were agressive......

For anyone who felt I was overly agressive I apologize....

I am certainly not angry at anyone...... and am a very cool headed cat.......

I had already withdrawn from this thread......

and would not have posted again......


My passion for this work..... I guess comes off perhaps as aggressive....

Im always searching for the truth......

 

[Payaso]

To answer neongreen, who started this thread - the answer is that alternating nodes indicates that your plant has entered the flowering stage and is not merely vegetating.

Full maturity of the flowers are determined by other methods.

This information comes straight from many experts thru my fingertips to you.

Happy growing to all and may there be many flowers amidst your alternating branches.