San Diego Growers please need your input

This is going to be a little bit of a read but if you are having unexplained yellowing please read on. Little history on my self I have been growing for about 10 years, I have not had a problem to speak of for the last 8 years. Up until a few months ago I was helping 9 different people with there grows as well.
So it all started 4-6 months ago. I have been using advanced nutrients for about the last 5 years loved them never had a problem. But after 4 rooms had to be pulled do to the is yellow(eventually burning see pic) then replanted and happening again. On a strain that I have been growing for the last 7 years, and know every last thing about it. I was convinced it was a bad batch of nutes. I go to the store swap them out, and call advanced with the batch numbers to see if there had been any reported problems. They say they will get back to me. 10 days later I have a meeting with the sales rep at the store, they tell me that the bottles were 18 months old when I bought them, and that was likely the reason I was having problems. I was pretty mad that bottles I had bought 3 months prior were bad. The store had a receipt that said they received them 1 week prior to me buying them. So they came from the factory old. So returned all my product and went with canna out of spite. So I go and flush everything out and apply canna everything seems to be stable not anymore yellowing but not really any greening either.

I am kind of worried at this point so I get another batch of clones ready just incase. The new clones are ready they have never seen a drop of the bad nutes. Within 2 weeks they have the same symptoms. I start doing some research and everyone I know has been having the same problem different nutes, different strains, different growers, ppm pens, styles you name it but the same problem. It has now swelled to over 20 people. So what connects all these people the water. Every one of them is receiving water from helix water district. I could only find 4 people that reported no problems 1. On a well 2. Buying bottled water 3. On padre dam 4. Bottled water. Now 2 reported that he was having problems a few months back and asked my partner to go look at them it never ended up happening. 4 weeks later we call 2, and he says everything looks great. Now I am really confused cause I am still on the bad nute trip. I call him a few days ago to ask about the water and his source and find out when they were yellowing he was using his house RO water but his booster pump broke and was not supplying enough water so he would have to go to the store to make up the other 40 gals. That is when they started coming back I saw the plants day before harvest and the looked great.

Now every person on my list is using an RO. My water comes out at around 20 ppm. Now what is common between all the people is they have failed to change out the carbon prefilters in there RO’s some up to 9 months old. Now mine is brand new RO but I use approx 500 gals a week running 30 lights and 90 plants plus mom room. I am thinking I just exhausted mine do to the high use. I have looked at all the water reports and compard helix to padre. The only difference I see is the helix uses chloramines and padre uses chlorine. I do some more research talk to a guy that has a masters in horticulture and he tells me that they have been using a higher dose than normal to flush the system out. He has a nursery they had to go to and do some leaf,soil,and water tests for some bamboo and found they had a chloramine toxicity with very similar sounding leaf look to mine. He says my therory sounds like the only reasonable explanation. My plants look pretty good now the day before christmas I was getting everything ready to be gone for 3 days I decided that the only thing I have not tried with these plants to get them green is raising the ppm’s to what I think is unreasonable. I have had the plant at 1800 in flower. I am currently at 2000 in veg with still a pale green look. So I raise them to 2500 come back 3 days later to find everything looking bitchin best the looked in a long time. I get them to look good enough to go 12/12 I slowly increase the nutes as I notice they are using more nutes then water. Eventually getting them to 3000 ppm. Unheard of in my book but shit they look good. So now I finally think I have gotten it figured out with the water and all. I go out and buy the tall blue granular activated carbon prefilter(the 24” one) good for the amount of water I need. Change all my res’s with new filtered better water. Within 3 days I check my res and my ppm’s are going up so instanly I knew the roots are getting better and are able to uptake a bigger % and need a lower ppm. Roots only uptake about 20% of what you have in the res so at 3000ppm they only take in about 600 ppm of that so as the roots heal the % goes up ppm down. Plants still look awesome I might add I have been doing twice a week foliar at 500ppm(plants receive 80% with foliar) which I think has help the situation a lot.

Any ways I would like to here from other local growers to see if this is just within my group of friends or wide spread.

I found this article about hydroponic lettuce that back up my theory.

Lettuce seedlings pretreated with solutions containing either of N, P, K, Ca or Mg at the concentration of 150% strength Enshi-shohou for 48 hours, were transplanted to 50% strength Enshi-shohou solution containing chloramine. Root injury occurred by chloramine treatment with all the pretreatments. After 6 h of chloramine treatment, 2,3,5-triphenyltetrazolium chloride (TTC) reduction activity decreased in root tissues. Growth rate after 10 days of culture was similar with all the pretreatment. Lettuce seedlings subjected to high atmospheric temperature, high humidity, high solution temperature or high light intensity during culture with the half strength Enshi-shohou nutrient solutions for 8 days, were transplanted to 50% strength Enshi-shohou solution containing chloramine. Again, root injury occurred by chloramine treatment with all the pretreatments. TTC reduction of root tissues after 6 hours of chloramine treatment decreased similarly with all the pretreatments. Rate of fresh weight increase after 10 days of culture was similar with all the pretreatments. It was concluded that root injury was induced and growth was inhibited by chloramine, regardless of nutrient solution constituents or environmental conditions prior to chloramine treatment, although the effect of chloramine was modified by these pretreatments

and this

It’s extremely difficult to determine if something in the water supply is causing plant growth problems. Root rot pathogens may originate in water, but they can come from a number of sources, including fungal spores, blown in dust or brought in by insects. Mineral problems can be a little easier to trace if the water supply analysis is available to check levels of elements. Plant problems which may be caused by water treatment chemicals are difficult to diagnose as some plants are much more sensitive than others and the type of system also plays a role. Research studies have reported that chloramines in hydroponic nutrient solutions can cause growth inhibition and root browning in susceptible plants. One study reported that the critical chloramines amount at which lettuce plant growth was significantly inhibited was 0.18 mg Cl/g root fresh weight, however, the levels at which some other species would be damaged is as yet undetermined. Similar problems exist with the use of other water treatment chemicals; chlorine and hydrogen peroxide are good disinfection agents, but too much in the hydroponic nutrient will cause root damage and just what is a safe level is dependant on a number factors such as the level of organic loading in the system

I read some of it, if you call/write to the water company and ask for a breakdown of what is in your local water you should be able to get one. If they ask why, say somethin like you keep tropical fish and need to know. I think you wanted to check if your water contained chloramine? If it does and thats the reason for your yellowing out its pretty shitty lol

I already have the reports in front of me 1.8ppm average with a spike of 3 ppm a swiming pool is recommended at 2ppm so at 1.8 I feel it's pretty high. I am sure a plant would die if feed swimming pool water.

bump

So some more info came to light recently. This problem began at the end of july. That is when I pulled my last succeful harvest and started planting the next.

Water shortage influence on
water quality
Q. Does the drought affect the taste of my water?
A. Yes, it does. Because of the water shortage in
Northern California, along with issues regarding the
Delta Smelt, our water supply from the State Project
Water (SPW) in Northern California has been cut.
Lately, all of Helix water is coming from the Colorado
River and local sources. The mineral content from the
Colorado River has a considerably higher salt content
than SPW. What this amounts to is a ‘harder’ water
delivered to our customers. This higher mineral
content affects the taste and increases detergent and
soap use. Some describe it as a mineral-tasting water;
others even describe it as metallic in taste. However,
the increased hardness in no way affects the health
and safety of your water.

and this

When the region's water supplies were cut last July, the effects were muted here because of the San Diego County Water Authority's steady source: paying farmers in Imperial County to fallow their fields and buying the water that would otherwise be used for irrigation

You can smell it now in the water too. I've noticed that over the last 2 years. Smells like shit. It's sad whats happening.

I still run my water from a garden hose and my P.H stays balanced but I don't use Advanced Nutrients. I haven't had a problem but none of my boys run tap anymore, they all run RO water. Unless I see something that absolutely makes me change my mind I'll still continue to use tap.

But good thread though....

few question for you
1st. You live in San diego?
2nd. What water district are you on?
3rd. are you in soil or hydro?
I have not heard of anyone in soil with the problem I believe cause the soil acts as a buffer

I am not conviced its chloramines that are the problem they have been using them since 1991. I have been growing that since 2000 with no problems, but it has to be the water.

I have been having suspisions that it could be an issue with flouride I found an interesting article about aluminum flouride. Apparently under acidic conditions aluminum and flouride bond with a ph below 6I run mine at 5.6 and have flouride and aluminum in the water. Also everything I have been reading says that RO's don't remove flouride very well only an Alumina filter. I sent my water into the lab to have it tested I should know by today or tomorow whats in it. I added a few filters to my line up I have a KDF(zinc copper) and a tall blue. Going to get the Alumina if my tests come back with flouride in it.

Heres the article

The possibility that fluoride may play a contributing role to the toxic effects attributed to "aluminum" is supported by laboratory research on both fish and vegetation. Hamilton (1995), for instance, found that the toxic effects of aluminum on fish were enhanced if 0.25 ppm fluoride was added to acidic water (5.5 pH). In addition, Hamilton also reported that gill damage among fish increased when he raised the fluoride concentration from 0.1 to 0.2 ppm, an effect which he suggests may result from fluoride's reported ability to increase the aluminum concentration at the gill surface.
In addition to research on aluminum fluoride's effect on fish, scientists have also investigated the impact of aluminum fluoride on vegetation. Most notably, Facanha in 2002 found that aluminum fluoride in acidic soils reduces the growth and yield of corn plants in a manner analagous to "phosphate starvation." Facanha makes a convincing case that aluminum fluoride complexes are able to cause this growth-suppressing effect through its "well-known phosphate-mimicking property." According to Facanha, the aluminum fluoride complex is treated as identical to phosphate by the corn's roots, thereby competing with phosphate uptake at the binding sites of the root. The end result is that less phosphate is absorbed into the plant, resulting in less energy and lower yields
1. Laboratory soil experiments have found that plants do not absorb fluoride from soils with a neutral pH. However, when the acidity increases, fluoride complexes with aluminum, and the rate of fluoride and aluminum uptake by plants greatly increases.
2. Laboratory soil experiments have found that aluminum fluoride complexes in acidic soils cause the very type of growth inhibitiion associated with acid rain damage
This study has provided the first documented evidence that acid rain and fluoride may act synergistically in inhibiting plant growth via soil deposition." - Horner JM, Bell JNB. (1995). Effects of fluoride and acidity on early plant growth. Agriculture, Ecosystems and Environment. 52: 205-211.
3b) Fluoride Uptake By Plants Increases When Soil's Acidity Increases:
"Our experiment showed clearly that, when enough calcium was available to give a pH of about 6.5, the fluorine absorption through the roots was very low, but the important thing is pH, it seems. We had high absorption of fluorine at low pH. We must know the pH of the soil."
SOURCE: Daines RH, Leone I, Brennan E. (1949). The Effect of Fluorine on Plants as Determined by Soil Nutrition and Fumigation Studies. In: Air Pollution. Proceedings of the United States Technical Conference on Air Pollution. McGraw-Hill Book Co, New York. pp. 97-105.
"Soil pH is a determinant factor for fluorine solubility, but there exist different explanation models."
SOURCE: Wenzel W, Blum W. (1992). Fluorine Speciation and Mobility in F-Contaminated Soils. Soil Science. 153(5): 357-364.
"Soil reaction, or pH, is a factor in the movement of fluorides from soil into plant tops, and hence acid-loving vegetation may contain fluorine well beyond the 4 to 7 ppm content that is usual in forage vegetation devoid of fluoric contamination."
SOURCE: MacIntire WH. (1949). Air Versus Soil as Channels for Fluoric Contamination of Vegetation in Two Tennessee Locales. In: Air Pollution. Proceedings of the United States Technical Conference on Air Pollution. McGraw-Hill Book Co, New York. pp. 53-58.
"The effect of fluoride pollution of soils on plants has generally been discounted, primarily because it is well known that F adsorbs strongly to most soils at neutral pH and is, therefore, assumed to be unavailable to plants."
SOURCE: Stevens DP, McLaughlin MJ, Randall PJ, Keerthisinghe G. (2000). Effect of fluoride supply on fluoride concentrations in five pasture species: Levels required to reach phytotoxic or potentially zootoxic concentrations in plant tissue. Plant and Soil. 227: 223-233.
3d) In Acidic Soils, Aluminum Fluoride Complexes Facilitate the Uptake of Both Aluminum & Fluoride:
"The linkage of fluoride and aluminum accumulation can be explained by the formation of stable soluble aluminum-fluoride complexes in the soil, particularly under acid conditions, and the resulting increase of uptake of both elements."
SOURCE: Klumpp A, Klumpp G, Domingos M, Dias Da Silva M. (1996). Fluoride impact on native tree species of the Atlantic forest near Cubatao, Brazil. Water Air and Soil Pollution. 87: 57-71.
"The high solubility of fluorine under acid conditions can be explained by the occurrence of cationic [AlF]2+ and [AlF2]+ complexes... Aluminum solubility is increased by fluoride."
SOURCE: Wenzel W, Blum W. (1992). Fluorine Speciation and Mobility in F-Contaminated Soils. Soil Science. 153(5): 357-364.
"The increased solubility of fluoride at lower pH is attributable to formation of soluble AlFx3-x complexes..."
SOURCE: Gago C, Fernandez Marcos ML, Alvarez E. (2002). Aqueous Aluminum Species in Forest Soils Affected by Fluoride Emissions from an Aluminum Smelter in NW Spain. Fluoride. 35(2): 110-121.
"The degree of [fluoride] accumulation depends on several factors, including soil type and, most prominently, pH. At acidic pH (below pH 5.5), fluoride becomes more phytoavailable through complexation with soluble aluminium fluoride species, which are themselves taken up by plants or increase the potential for the fluoride ion to be taken up by the plant."
SOURCE: World Health Organization. (2002). FLUORIDES. Environmental Health Criteria 227. World Health Organization, Geneva
"The uptake of positively charged AlFx complexes may explain the positive correlations between F and Al concentrations in the shoot."
SOURCE: Arnesen AKM. (1997). Availability of fluoride to plants grown in contaminated soils. Plant and Soil. 191: 13-25.
"Aluminum increased fluoride concentrations in roots and shoots but the pattern of distribution between root and successive leaves was not substantially altered... Aluminum might affect the uptake and transport of fluoride in several ways."
SOURCE: Takmaz-Nisancioglu S, Davison AW. (1988). Effects of aluminum on fluoride uptake by plants. New Phytol. 109: 149-155.
"Increasing the AlCl3 concentration caused a very marked increase in soluble fluoride in Soils 1 and 2, probably due to formation of soluble aluminum fluoride complexes."
SOURCE: Larsen S, Widdowson AE. (1971). Soil Fluorine. Journal of Soil Science. 22: 210-221.
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3e) In Acidified Soils, Aluminum-Fluoride Complexes Reduce Plant Growth and Yield:
"Results obtained in this study showed that high levels of F in acid soils reduce crop yield due to increasing aluminum and depressing phosphate uptake."
SOURCE: Elrashidi M, Persaud N, Baligar VC. (1997). Effect of fluoride and phosphate on yield and mineral composition of barley grown on three soils. Agricultural Research Service. United States Department of Agriculture. Approved date: March 4, 1997.
"The results of this study support our hypothesis that the toxicity of Al is enhanced in acidic environment contaminated with fluoride."
SOURCE: Rai LC, Husaini Y, Mallick N. (1996). Physiological and biochemical responses of Nostoc Linckia to combined effects of aluminum, fluoride and acidification. Environmental and Experimental Botany. 36: 1-12.
"the strong inhibition of H+ -ATPase observed in medium containing fluoride and aluminum may suggest that fluoroaluminate could play a role in the mechanism of aluminum toxicity and inhibition of plant growth observed in acid soils. However, at present we do not know whether fluoroaluminate is able to penetrate the cells of the corn roots."
SOURCE: Facanha AR, Meis L. (1995). Inhibition of Maize Root H+ -ATPase by Fluoride and Fluoroaluminate Complexes. Plant Physiology. 108: 241-246.
"fluoroaluminum complexes have been shown in the present study to be toxic to root elongation, but sulfatoaluminum species appear to have little or no toxicity."
SOURCE: Kinrade, TB. (1996). Reconsidering the rhizotoxicity of hydroxyl, sulfate, and fluoride complexes of aluminum. Agricultural Research Service. United States Department of Agriculture. Approved date: August 14, 1996.
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3f) Mechanism of Aluminum Fluoride's Toxicity to Plants:
AlF mimics phosphate, reduces root uptake of phosphate, and causes a reduction in the plant's energy and yield similar to the effects seen in cases of "phosphate starvation")
"Contrary to prior expectations, Al-F complexes have been shown to be toxic to plants. Although several hypotheses for the mechanism of Al-F toxicity have been considered, so far all of them have been rejected. The present study focuses on the description of an alternative mechanism for the toxicity of AlFx through a well-known phosphate-mimicking property attributed to these complexes. Phosphorus is acquired by plant roots primarily via high-affinity Pi transporters. Several pieces of evidence support a model where AlFx complexes can mimic the tetrahedral phosphate group competing with it for the same binding sites on the Pi carriers and possibly stabilizing an inactive conformation. First, AlFx-induced inhibition of Pi uptake was antagonized by raising the Pi concentration in the reaction medium. Second, the stimulation of Pi uptake in corn roots after AlFx pretreatment is similar to that observed after Pi starvation... This supports the model where the fluoroaluminates act as physiological Pi analogs by competing directly for the same binding sites of Pi transport rather than any indirect effect on the proton motive force of the process... These evidences support the proposal that the property of AlFx to mimic Pi may describe the most important mechanism of AlFx toxicity whenever AlF3 and AlF4 are the dominant species."
SOURCE: Facanha AR, Okorokova-Facanha AL. (2002). Inhibition of Phosphate Uptake in Corn Roots by Aluminum-Fluoride Complexes. Plant Physiology. 179: 1763-1772.
"Results obtained in this study showed that high levels of F in acid soils reduce crop yield due to increasing aluminum and depressing phosphate uptake."
SOURCE: Elrashidi M, Persaud N, Baligar VC. (1997). Effect of fluoride and phosphate on yield and mineral composition of barley grown on three soils. Agricultural Research Service. United States Department of Agriculture. Approved date: March 4, 1997.
"The possibility remains that Al-F is an effective vehicle for the intracelluar uptake of Al and F where these elements, once dissociated from each other, may exert a toxic effect."
SOURCE: Kinraide TB. (1997). Reconsidering the rhizotoxicity of hydoxyl, sulphate, and fluoride complexes of aluminum. Journal of Experimental Botany. 48(310): 1115-1124
"Higher intracellular Al uptake from the media containing AlF3 and NaF+AlCl3 as opposed to that with only AlCl3 in the presence of phosphate indicates the existence of different modes of entry for Al in the presence and absence of fluoride."
SOURCE: Rai LC, Husaini Y, Mallick N. (1996). Physiological and biochemical responses of Nostoc Linckia to combined effects of aluminum, fluoride and acidification. Environmental and Experimental Botany

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=3132807&posted=1#post3132807

Here is a link to another good thread about flouride issues