What Exactly is in Additives?

What Exactly is in Additives?

While some purist foreswear using any additives, preferring instead to rely on nothing more than a good basic fertilizer, light, and water; many people have succumbed to the sirens call of those over-priced supplements. Even at a hundred bucks a bottle, an additive that can raise harvests by as little as 10% to 30% may seem worth it. Yet in the absence of reliable data, or even full list of active ingredients, people buy this booster or that based on rather vague claims made by the manufacturer.

While I do suspect that some people have been shelling out $60 a liter for is nothing more than sugar water, some of these additives might contain agricultural chemicals that do indeed “supercharge” your plants, but at a price hundreds of times higher than these companies paid for them in bulk.

This thread is for the deciphering of additives. I propose to discuss three questions:

1. What is the true active agent in any of these additives?
2. Is the agent truly effective?
3. Can the active substance be had at a lower price?

What makes our task difficult is that the government agencies that regulate these tonics and snake oils only require plant food ingredients to be listed. So a bottle containing a plant hormone as its active ingredient only must list the NPK ratio along which it usually follows up with a claim of “increased resin production” or “enhanced photosynthesis.” I feel that any mention of things like B vitamins or kelp extract on the label is just a red herring. Still, based on the manufacture’s claims, I think we may be able to deduce what the true active ingredient is in any given additive. Here’s what I have so far:

Bushmaster, Dr. Nodes "stops vertical growth" : PGR, maybe mepiquat?

Dark Energy "faster and greater ion penetration of the cell walls, visibly enhancing the rate of growth" : Triacontanol, Brassinolide, and/or Amino Acids??

Canna Boost "increases the plant’s photosynthesis" : Triacontanol???

Super Thrive "growth enhancer" : 1-Naphthaleneacetic acid

Gravity "increase the size and mass of your flowers" : ????

Purple Maxx "enhances the intensity of color and resin on flowers" : ????

We each have a piece to this puzzle.

Please post your questions, answers, and speculations here and together perhaps we can all learn something.

I don't have much to add at the moment but I did want to chime in since the potential for this "discussion" interests me. After a little thought (and research) about the subjects you've proposed I will be back to weigh in.

On a quick note, there is another product that may warrant scrutiny as well. Its called Reverse, is put out by Dutch Master, and is a hormonal "reversing" agent that prevents the production of seed in female plants and kills the pollen on male plants. It does work. I've used it on Hermaphrodites to prevent the production of pollen sacs.I've seen it stop seeds from growing when a female has been pollinated. Apparently the contents of this product is used in commercial applications and is the way we get our "seedless" grapes, watermelon, etc.

Good topic. I'm in.

daminozide, paclobutrazol, GA4/7 and cycocel or the one you mentioned in Bush master are in a few products would suck if you didnt know so a thread on coments would be good for all. where i live they must have to say on the bottle if any PGRs are used ive seen it in Uturn but not in the delivery agents, a dutch master product and many under the counter type hormones for this that and the other.


I dont really buy into the whole additive thing and then PGRs thats a whole different ball game i really try to stay away when growing herb. a good nute, silica, root booster (lovmy rhizotonic) and alittle more PK in flower gives consistantly good results for me. Canna boost or bio boost i have used isnt ment control bud stretch read the brocher as to what the effect is and how its made but ingredients arnt labled. The others a cant coment on havnt/ wouldnt use.

Flavor and Aroma Enhancers

Manufactures’ Claims

Sweet™
Sweet organic carbohydrate synthesizer contains carbohydrates, organic acids, vitamins, amino acids, esters, essential secondary and trace elements. . .


Sweet Leaf
Our scientists found the precise ratios of superior-sourced carbs, pure cane sugars, malt extracts, light brown molasses, vitamins and other organic ingredients that make your crops taste so good and produce way more.

Discussion

I believe that these products do work. A medical grower did a side by side of Northern Lights (which is practically odorless) and the plants that received Sweet did indeed have a heavy fruity aroma, while the control plants smelled like dried grass clippings. Why?

The manufactures of both of these products list common ingredients: sugars, suphur, zinc, amino acids, vitamin C and esters. Which one of these elements and compounds does the trick and which ones are red herrings?

Sugars are listed as ingredients in both products, And while it is well known that sugar can be good for plants by providing a good, quick source of energy for the various forms of microbes and soil life, I feel that it does very little to enhance aroma or flavor. After all, the sugar molecule could never get through the root membrane.

While sulfur and zinc do promote flavor and aroma, I do not believe these are the elements that are the primary chemicals at work in these products. Most balanced fertilizers contain ample quantities of these substances already for the plants to do an adequate job of producing all the aroma and flavor they are genetically predisposed to do. And while studies have found that in plants whose characteristic flavor comes from glucosinolates, growing in solution in which sulfur levels are increased above those required for maximum growth will increases flavor and aroma (Freeman and Mossadeghi 1972), cannabis’ flavor and aroma originates in terpenoids, not glucosinolates, and terpenoids have not been shown to be as positively effected by increased levels of sulfur or zinc.

That leaves the esters. Those of us that remember our chemistry know that esters are compounds formed from alcohol and an acid. It’s what fruity things smell fruity, or foul etc. I believe it is in the esters where these products have their efficacy. The most obvious indication of this is that my friends otherwise aromaless plants that he grew with berry flavored Botanicare Sweet, smelled EXACTLY like the berry flavored Botanicare Sweet!

Questions

Am I right about the esters?
If so, what class of esters are we talking about?
Is there a cheaper source of esters that can be used for flavor and aroma in cannabis plants?

Boosters

Manufactures’ Claims

CannaBoost
“CANNABOOST is CANNA’s powerful flowering stimulator… CANNABOOST stimulates the development of newly formed flowers… CANNABOOST increases the plant’s photosynthesis. PK 13/14 provides the plant with extra flowering elements while CANNABOOST assures the plant has the energy to utilize these elements… CANNABOOST contains flowering compounds that assure the plant matures to its full potential. It also holds natural flowering regulators that better distribute both stimulants in the booster itself, as well as flowering substances and energy naturally available in the plant…

Discussion

I’ve read the threads regarding this product, and while some people gladly shell out $100 per liter for this stuff I have yet to see a side by side done.

Canna lists L amino acids as one ingredient and hints at another unnamed agent that “increases the plant’s photosynthesis,” a “flowering regulators that better distribute both stimulants in the booster itself.” Again, which one of these compounds does the trick and which ones are red herrings?

The first thing to catch my eye was Canna’s unusual claim that CannaBoost actually will “increases the plant’s photosynthesis.” An internet search turned up a compound that has been shown for decades to do just that, triacontanol.

Triacontanol is a naturally occurring plant hormone that acts as a growth promoter. Triacontanol raises plant yield by improving photosynthesis and cell division. For about 20 bucks you can order enough triacontanol to make about fifty gallons of CannaBoost:

http://www.super-grow.biz/Triacontanol.jsp#ordering

But doesn’t Canna also make BioBoost, which makes the same claims as regular CannaBoost, but comes in a form derived from “a natural fermented plant extract that stimulates bloom increases, productivity and improves taste.” How can this be?

Well it turns out that triacontanol occurs widely in nature. It is contained in the waxy coating on many plants and is a major
component of beeswax. One of the most common sources of triacontanol is alfalfa hay. Here’s how you can make your own BioBoost from alfalfa:

Foliar Spray
Soak 5 tablets (500 to 600mg. of compressed alfalfa purchased from a natural food stores) in one gallon of water for 24 hours. Agitate. Drench plants with mixture as many as five times during a growing season.

Soil additive:
Add a cupful of alfalfa meal (purchased from farm food stores, being careful that meal has not been denatured by high heat), each pot of soil or growing media.

Another ingredient mentioned by Canna as well as manufacturer of similar products are L amino acids. It’s what gives many of these products their distinctive aroma. For around ten bucks you can buy enough L amino acid to fill your bathtub:

http://www.super-grow.biz/Amino.jsp

Questions


Am I right about these secret ingredients being triacontanol and amino acids?

Does triacontanol effect cannabis plants in the same ways it has been shown in studies to effect other plants?

Could someone make their own homemade liter of CannaBoost by combining triacontanol and L amino acids for about twenty-five cents?

Paclobutrazol at least, is available as a research chemical at a very minimal fee. At doses that are in ppm, a 10g bottle will last you a long long time.

geopolitical said:

Paclobutrazol at least, is available as a research chemical at a very minimal fee. At doses that are in ppm, a 10g bottle will last you a long long time.

Click to expand...

Wikipedia says:

Paclobutrazol is a plant growth retardant and triazole fungicide. It is a known opponent of the plant hormone gibberellin. It acts by inhibiting gibberellin biosynthesis, reducing internodial growth to give stouter stems, increasing root growth, causing early fruitset and increasing seedset in plants such as tomato and pepper.PBZ has also been shown to reduce frost sensitivity in plants. PBZ is used by arborists to reduce shoot growth and has been shown to have additional positive effects on trees and shrubs. Among those are improved resistance to drought stress, darker green leaves, higher resistance against fungi and bacteria, and enhanced development of roots. Cambial growth as well as shoot growth has been shown to be reduced in some tree species.

What could paclobutrazol's role in cannabis horticulture be?

Is it part of any commercial formulation already?

This is what I found on UK420 regarding paclobutrazol and cannabis:

…The main active ingredient in Superbud was paclobutrazol. Superbud was banned because it wasn't labelled correctly in regards to European regulations or the FDA…

"To make 1L of homemade Superbud all you need is 500ml 99% Iso alcohol, 500ml RO water and 0.9g of paclobutrazol. I buy 25 grams of Paclo for $19.50. First add 0.9g of the paclo to the alcohol and shake the shit out of it (it doesn't disolve in water). Then add 500ml of RO water and shake it again and badabing bada boom, you got superbud. Apply at 3ml per L of nutrient solution. Store it at room temp or the paclo will fall out of suspension of the alcohol. So for under 20bux US you can make about 27L of super bud which is about enough to mix up 9000L of nutrient solution. The mix works awsome. It will slow down virtical growth, i'm sure not as good as the superbud or phosphoload does but the mind blowing effects of the mix is the girth and hardness of the buds. The last crop I used it on was easily the hardest nugs I have ever sceen in my life and HEAVY. Half pound bags looked like QP's and thats not an exageration"


And another little tidbit about paclobutrazol in the same thread:

if superbud was banned due to incorrect labeling, then the label would of been changed.

it was banned as it contained growth regulators not fit for consumption (outside of austrailia where is a controlled substance), and i believe the dutch hospitals figured out the link between all the smokers coming in with lung problems. the labeling problem was like me sticking 'teeth whitening mouthwash' on bottles of bleach

like cultar, it contained a cancerous substance. unlike cultar though, it was not approved for use on anything except ornamentals. cultar is cheaper than paclobutrazol(although essentially the same thing in solution). its a controled substance available only under the counter, and to apply it you need full space suit. it then remains active for 6 weeks, during which time you should avoid touching where its been. thats the catagory of stuff were talking about here.

superbud instructed 3ml per litre recirc. 5% to waste. 7 days. even a dose as low as 0.5ml tightened some peoples chests. I dont know anyone that saw the weed produced as anything but commercial. it gave a boring dry plain taste, and killed people.

the bottle claimed 2:2:4 and gave a typical chemical analasis...
nitrogen as nh4..... 0.4%
potassium..............0.8%
sulphur..................0.1%
phosphorus............0.4%
magnesium............0.08%
zinc.......................0.0002%
organic carbon.......0.02%

that ^^ in my opinion is seriously holding out on people. They can blaim labels all they want. they were selling us controled substances that kill.

just to round up:
if such boosting chemicals were safe for us to use, then people would be selling them to us. feed manufacturers have nothing to gain from not giving us the best they can. dutch masters, the people behind superbud, need lining up along the wall, and shooting.

But is it true?

I don’t want to dismiss someone just because he sounds alarmist and can’t spell.

I’d like to try out that formulation for superbud, unless paclobutrazol really is that dangerous.

According to the PAN Pesticides Database, paclobutrazol is NOT listed as a carcinogen and under "Acute Toxicity" it is classified as mild.

http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC34826#Toxicity

It's currently in several products on the market now:

http://www.pesticideinfo.org/List_Products.jsp?Rec_Id=PC34826&Chem_Name=Paclobutrazol&PC_Code=125601

Great thread old man! I wish I had something to contribute. I've never used any additives, mostly because I just can't bring myself to take a manufacturer's say-so on crazy claims about massive yields or whatever. Snake-oil indeed. Basically, anyone trying to sell me a bottle of their "secret formula" can go suck it. An open discussion about the contents of those bottles, however, that's my kind of scene. Here's to ya OldMan:

Hey oldman your thread really took off.

I have been whatching it since last night - got me reading all about esters.

very interesting stuff...

++Edit++

I love snake-oils - it's the chocolate chips in the cookie of growing...

I just want to thank Dee9, Pirate and StephenMcTowlie for your encouragement. I feel there is a lot to be learned about plant hormones and PGRs that could be beneficial to all of us.

In the absence of testing the only thing we have to go on in are clues in the manufactures’ claims compared to the descriptions of properties of known agricultural agents.

I don’t imagine that these companies have discovered ANYTHING new about the fundamental life processes of plants. What is much more likely is that they are relying on readily available information on plant hormones and PGRs, buying these products for pennies, and re-selling them for hundreds of dollars. I’m sure they spend MUCH more on packaging and promotion than they do on development and production.

Here are some web sites of companies that sell plant hormones and PGRs as well as sources of general information:

http://www.super-grow.biz/Products.jsp

http://www.plantmedia.com/CategoryItem.php?CCode=PHORMONE

http://www.rexresearch.com/agro/biochstim.htm

http://www.pgrsource.com/

http://web.archive.org/web/20030908...ll.resources/bio/virtuallb/plant/hormone.html

http://www.phytotechlab.com/searchresult.aspx?categoryid=10

http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubcd/B1305.htm



Read the descriptions of the properties of these substances and cross reference them with the claims made by the additive makers. Notice the price of these products along with the dosing rates. Quite often a single gram of these substances is enough to produce gallons of usable product!

Let’s find out what we can and share what we know.

Dee9 said:

Hey oldman your thread really took off.

I have been whatching it since last night - got me reading all about esters.

very interesting stuff...

++Edit++

I love snake-oils - it's the chocolate chips in the cookie of growing...

Click to expand...

Please share with us what you have found out about esters.

Can they be absorbed through the roots?

One thing many people have tried time and again to improve flavorless and aromaless strains is to put flavor extracts (which are esters) into the nutrient mix. These efforts have usually been dismissed since it has been pointed out that these molecules are blocked at the cell membrane, as are the sugars that are often added for the same intended effect.

But is this 100% true?

Can SOME esters pass through the roots and into the plant?

Would natural esters not break down as they are metabolized by the plant and thus loose their aromatic properties?

Would artificial esters be absorbed by the plant? And if so, are they safe?

brassinosteroids

brassinosteroids

It seems you are spot-on with the esters.
You will find esters in beer too.
From a beer glossary:
Ester - Organic compounds produced during fermentation that resemble fruity or flowery aromas.

There are a lot of esters in single malt whiskey.

Oranges contain the ester octyl acetate. One can soak some orange peels in a bucket of water and give it to your plants. Apparently the pectin has some growth hormones. But this is something I have just read in a gardening mag. I have not done it myself.

Now here is something newish...

Plant Restorative
Caryophyllaceous Plant Extract
Active ingredient: Brassinolide (?)

I was just reading about a product I have been eyeing.

It seems to contain brassinosteroids, derived from the flower 'Lychnis viscara'. These plants seem to contain certain communication catalysts, enabeling the treated plants to grow better.

It was observed in its natural habitat to invigorate nearby growing plants – making them grow bigger and flower better.

The product is used as a seed soak ( no NPK ) and then again applied foliarly after the three leaf stage up until flower formation. Sold as a 'plant strengthening agent', it apparently reduces the effects of stress on the plants. It helps the plants grow stronger than they would have in less than ideal circumstances. And that would be the case for most indoor growers, wouldn't it?

As most additives are for use during flowering stage, this one caught my eye, because it is used mainly during the vegetative phase.

A bit off a site that sells the stuff:

“The revolutionary success is based especially on an extract from the seeds of the rock lychnis (Lychnis viscaria). Contained in this are two so-called brassinosteroids, hormone-like groups of biocatalysts which play a decisive part in activating the plant’s own resistance and tolerance mechanisms to the maximum. This product is the first of its kind to have succeeded in catalysing this activation of the plant’s own powers of defence in an optimum way.”

One site claims that the product was developed especially for hemp, but I doupt it, as all the papers I could find, either grains or fruit were used to test effectiveness.

you were reading my mind

I doubt if a natural ester could survive the micro heard. Since it is a bond between an acid and a base, it could degrade quickly in the soil.
And artificial esters...hmm. I would rather not.


Could esters be applied via the leaves? what about a pefume for the lady. From my limited biochemistry knowledge I recall something about orgainic compounds being quite large - maybe too big to enter the leaf?

Dee9 said:

Could esters be applied via the leaves? what about a pefume for the lady. From my limited biochemistry knowledge I recall something about orgainic compounds being quite large - maybe too big to enter the leaf?

Click to expand...

I just have to ask... Why bother with getting the esters in the plant through the roots, leaves or just plain why do it while the plant is alive? Why not simply treat the dried buds? Get some all natural essential oils and spray the buds or leave them in a humidor with the fragrance. The result would be identical: some of the flavoring compounds absorbed in the buds. It's not like adding orange flavoring to the nutrients is going to make the plant produce it's own natural orange-scented compounds.

kaljukajakas said:

Why not simply treat the dried buds?

Click to expand...

Somehow it feels like cheating... :-|

Dee9 said:

. . .

Now here is something newish...

Plant Restorative
Caryophyllaceous Plant Extract
Active ingredient: Brassinolide (?)

I was just reading about a product I have been eyeing.

It seems to contain brassinosteroids, derived from the flower 'Lychnis viscara'. These plants seem to contain certain communication catalysts, enabeling the treated plants to grow better.

. . .

Click to expand...

This is what Wikipedia says:


Brassinosteroids (BR) are a group of steroidal plant hormones. Brassinolide was the first of these steroid compounds discovered in 1973, when it was shown that pollen from Brassica napus could promote stem elongation and cell divisions and that the biologically active molecule was a steroid that the authors called Brassins. . .

BRs have been shown to be involved in numerous plant processes:

* Promotion of cell expansion and cell elongation; works with auxin to do so
* It has an unclear role in cell division and cell wall regeneration
* Promotion of vascular differentiation; BR signal transduction has been studied during vascular differentiation
* Is necessary for pollen elongation for pollen tube formation
* Acceleration of senescence in dying tissue cultured cells; delayed senescence in BR mutants supports that this action may be biologically relevant
* Can provide some protection to plants during chilling and drought stress

Extract from the plant Lychnis viscaria contains a relatively high amount of Brassinosteroids. Lychnis viscaria is said to increase the disease resistance of surrounding plants. In Germany extract from the plant is allowed for use as a "plant strengthening substance."

Here's where you can buy Brassinolide:


http://www.super-grow.biz/Brassinolide01.jsp

For about ten bucks you can buy enough to last the average gardener a decade.

I suspect that it is the basis of many of these $50 - $100 per liter tonics.

Paclobutrazol is a plant growth retardant and triazole fungicide. It is a known opponent of the plant hormone gibberellin. It acts by inhibiting gibberellin biosynthesis, reducing internodial growth to give stouter stems, increasing root growth, causing early fruitset and increasing seedset in plants such as tomato and pepper.PBZ has also been shown to reduce frost sensitivity in plants. PBZ is used by arborists to reduce shoot growth and has been shown to have additional positive effects on trees and shrubs. Among those are improved resistance to drought stress, darker green leaves, higher resistance against fungi and bacteria, and enhanced development of roots. Cambial growth as well as shoot growth has been shown to be reduced in some tree species.

What could paclobutrazol's role in cannabis horticulture be?

Is it part of any commercial formulation already?



Hello agains i have one for ya check this stuff out ONlY for Floral plants and stone fruit.
Paclobutrazol and cycocel are part 1 and part 2 in the 2 part -U turn- Product and im pretty sure there also in the 4 part but with added delivery agents. I didnt tell u though just what i found out after i used them along while ago. Pac= $5/ 10 ml lasts years @ 1 drop per 50 litres, cycocel $1 per ml and you need 1ml per litre for day 1 to 10 of flower bneing expensive may cost hundreds for a big grow.

this is a bad ass thread! im glad someone brought it up.
in my group of growers we constantly do side by side comparisons of different products that are on the market to find out what the best is. lately we have been getting outstanding results using biobix topmax during flowering, but at $170 a gallon and using 2000ml per 100 gal res is costing way to much. but the resulting flavor and smell of the finished product have been absolutely top notch. and the shine!! OMFG, the shine on these are incredible! top max is the reason we get $4400+ a lb, no problem.
we are about to finish up the next comparison with top max vs. dark energy. the dark energy look to be even more promising then the top max! after this round we are going to compare bloombastic.